I think frenzy is a tricky rule to come with such a significant discount. Maybe the rule should be priced differently base on the link options a unit has (maybe also think about different costs in vanilla and sectorial). Another example are the Riot grrrls, which are dirt cheap and not realy valuable in vanilla (cause not option to duo link) but in sectorials this discountworthy disadvantage can be easily negated giving her a friend. Same goes for a lot of frenzy units. Just a quick thought of mine.
Asawira (39) vs KOJ (47) ap spitfire vs Spitfire wip+1 vs Armor +1 Shock weapon vs DA weapon-heavy pistol Immunity Shock vs Terrain Mountain Dodge +2 Berserk Regeneration ( yeah and frenzy discount on Asawira ) For me Asawira has to be 1 or 2 points more expensive than KOJ. About this frenzy and impetious discounts, is myrmidon spitfire for instance 37 points without frenzy discount ?
Assuming it follows the standard costings, yes. The Bakunin update showed us with Moiras that gaining Frenzy gave that discount. You can see similarity in the Jayth profiles, which do not have Frenzy. The Jayth with a Red Fury costs 38 points, Spitfires are 2pts more expensive than a Red Fury.
This would be right given that vanilla armies do not exists. As long as vanilla armies exists, and the profile can be both used in vanilla and in sectorials, both frenzy and impetious discounts would favor these "link problem". An easy fix for this is to just move the game fully into sectorials, leaving vanillas for a tournament mod akin to mercs. This would allow to have a deep look at all troop costs and point them accordingly to their role and link options in the corresponding sectorial.
well i remember that Phoenix was costing smilar when he was frenzy. After then he became normal. I would like my phoenix impetious with 26-27 pts
I´d love to see that, a linkless angry man running over the battlefield trying to punch people with his HRL :-D good old times... Spoiler: off-topic fanboying "Ok, Mr. Phoenix, Sir. What do you want to do after you vaporised this poor ass soldier with your rocket launcher?" "I - would - like - to - RAAAGEEE!" Sorry for that Critical-role reference...i felt the need to share that. And now i want to paint the new coming phoenix as Grog...
Since removing vanilla from the game will for sure not happen, the actual easy fix would be to have separate profiles for linkable and non-linkable frenzy/impetuous troops. Have frenzy Riot Grrls in vanilla for cheap, take Frenzy from them in Bakunin and make them 5 points (not seven, taht discount/increase is out-of-proportion anyways) more expensive. Same for Asawira, Myrmidons, etc. Also make Frenzy and Impetuous models not linkable in vanilla. Looking at you Asawira.
So the real "solution" isn't to have Frenzy/Impetuous work in a fireteam to some degree to actually be a penalty?
I think it would be easiest to just have the models stay / turn (due to Frenzy) Impetous regardless of whether they are in a Fireteam, or not. As far as I can see (please do correct me, if I'm wrong!), it would impact: ability to benefit from Cover, resulting in some models in a Fireteam benefitting from it, and some (Impetous, or with active Frenzy) - not. ability to generate and spend Impetous Order. Not worth it in most cases IMO, as I guess that would kick the model out of a Fireteam, but hey: might be useful in a corner case (actually, CB would have to rule whether Team Leader can spend an Impetous Order on themselves and activate the entire team with them - which I find thematically appropriate, though whether it is desirable from the rules balance POV, I'd leave open for a debate - or would that mean leaving the fireteam. We have now precedent of Tactical Awareness and NCO using things other than Regular Orders to lead a Fireteam). Keep in mind than in N4 rules, an Impetous Order can be voluntarily discareded if you don't want to use it - not like in N2, when a Regular Order had to be used to cancel an Impetous Order. Of course, you'd need to keep track of who is Frenzied / Impetous in a Fireteam, but that's not a big deal IMO - given how many things we need to keep track of in Infinity anyways.
That's one of the things that CB doesn't seem interested in revisiting. For what it's worth, I frequently see Asawira as solo pieces for Haqq simply because the profile is so good. Losing cover when you're already in a good position is actually not a big deal when you also get an extra order.
Hell. CB has more or less implicitly acknowledged that Impetuous isn't actually a disadvantage when they made it optional on bikes.
It is more likely that Bike Equiptment had a cost paired with a series of characteristics: S4, Impetous, High Move Value... and they miscalculated that having a S4 is so detrimental because of how the scenography of this game works that even with the implied impetous discount bikes were not being used. So they ended reviewing how Bike Equiptment work in a way that bikes that had already Mim -3 got a discount of 2 points, bikes that did not had already Mim-3 got it with a cost increase of 2 points... and allow you to choose if the bike was Impetous or not at deployment. So indeed, impetous it is a disadvantage. But having bikes being S4 in a fragile 1W trooper is even more of a disadvantage* and therefore it already oversees the impetous discount by it's own category of discount in the final point cost of the troop. *Montesa Knights are awesome thanks to being true 2W ,4 ARM, Mim -3 and they are in their own category. They're not bikes, they're futuristic armoured heavy cavalry
I disagree. In part because they really were performing well for the players who learned to use them (I didn't, but I also knew I sucked at using them so it's not like I could complain), but also in part because the big remotes didn't get this discount and improvement. (Refer to "insulting nerf" thread if you want to know more!) It's mainly compensating for the difficulty in using the unit, which is essentially shifting the unit ceiling upwards as well. As a result, even I can use bikes to good effect, and I'm not sure how I feel about this...
When I used to play Nomads back in N3 I found solo Riot Grrls to be very solid too when used as attacking pieces. You could punch through the enemy's hard ARO on the first turn before Frenzy activated and then use the Impetuous Order to more efficiently deliver the very-affordable Heavy Infantry into the opponent's backline. My preference is to remove Frenzy altogether, though. I can't remember the last time I saw someone actually triggering the rule between using them as disposable ARO pieces or as part of links, and it's a lot of rule and head space for a fairly minor effect in most cases. The only thing that would change about how most Frenzy units are used if they lost the rule is their price (outside Steel Phalanx).
It doesn't hurt that the Asawira can duo with a Tac Aware Sensorbot (that gets a discount and a way better weapon loadout than default sensorbots, too) that you should already strongly consider taking in vanilla anyway. That's some insanely good utility and efficiency in one package right there. Shit's kind of cracked, just saying.
To give a little context, compare: ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 2 ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14) 1.5 SWC | 53 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 1 CRANE AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) 1.5 SWC | 49 Points Open in Infinity Army Someone, please, justify this. For 4 points more, you get two more orders, AP ammo on the spitfire, 6-2 MOV, +1BS, +1PH, +3BTS, Regeneration, and Berserk on the Asawira. You also get Sensor and a Specialist on board. The Crane has +1CC, Courage, and a better CC weapon.
KoJ as you said is fine, not good, just fine, the question in comparison as I pointed out is that brushing off far better equipment as if they do not exist because the local meta or I would argue the game system makes them infrequently used like the pistol or the CC weapon does nto mean they do not exist or they do not add value to the model. There are many calls to update frankly everything at the same time all the time, which is unrealistic and also a call to make everything optimized, and I am not sure how wise that is.
