If we get new auxbots with different profiles I think I’ll be so happy I’ll cry. I love those little bots. A very interesting question. I will look forward to the answers when I am awake and I will think on the question myself. Rushing off to bed now as up for work early.
The lack of “counts as” seems kind of “six of one, half a dozen of the other”. The “standard” Hackers all still fit into what is likely going to be your Core (Bolts in NCA, Bagh Mari in SAA, etc) so it’s more a matter of whether you feel that SWC and point cost is worth protecting your Hacker in a Core. One place it strikes me as quite interesting is figuring a combo of ORC Hacker and one of the ORC TinBots. Its expense means it’s more likely to go on a Haris v a Core, so losing the Cohesive bonuses, but putting in a striking Haris with a, for example, Kamau Hacker, could make a decent amount of sense. Your Kamau then can’t be any less than an effective BTS6, and is on a “PanO Good” WIP13.
I am extremely disappointed that I have to say that the altercations of the last couple of pages should not have happened yet they happened...
Does it change the way you feel about things like the KoJ or Santiago though? Of if you used to run a orc fb with fusiliers and a kamau hacker do you still look at it the same way, or have you shifted around to a pure kamau link, downgrade everything to a fusiliers or just throw out the hacker entirely? SAA has arguably the best hacking of all iterations (aside from just being the best period fite me) but I dont know if I care to throw scylla in a link rather than just let her run solo and have a regular Hacker to pop stealth off targets. Or just say stuff it to the link hacker and just run a cheeky naga khd.
Santiago has been the most impacted with these changes, but not the hacker, the Spitfire, KoJ I am not sure since personally I have only fielded the Forward deployment Spitfire in a haris with two Forward deployment Hospitalers and I mostly see the missile launcher been discussed, I rarely put an Order sergeant hacker in a core unless the core is mixed with a black friar in and usually opt for the escort hacker (sometimes two) doing deployment zone guard duty. Outside of Military Orders I mostly field a fusilier hacker in a pure fireteam team as standard, or a bolt hacker in a pure bolt fireteam, the tread has make me want to try a second hacker but not tied to a core either independent or part of a secondary haris. I have not fielded a pure Kamau core because I did not have the models, but now that I have converted them it is a possibility, I used either the standard Fusilier with Kamau Sniper or Fusiliers pure on the few lists I played. As for the Orc hacker and Orc tinbot, I have fielded them together in a pure core, she was neve relevant in the equation, the HMG was used approaching the enemy deployment zone, the boarding shotgun was used up close.
Anyone discussing/experimenting with the why and then utilising that understanding to leverage the game in their favour will always be more valuable than someone regurgitating "X wins 52 % of games" without understanding. Its pretty much the difference between merely observing a phenomenon (winrate) and developing a theory (understanding how factors contribute to the winrate and utilising that understanding to generate different outcomes) Basically if you want to treat the game like a science then dont half arse it.
Personally, KoJ or KoS Hackers in a Fireteam never quite worked for me. I know it did and does for others, but they’ve always just felt best as solo pieces for me. No ‘hard’ evidence, just feel. For the former mixed Fireteams I used to have in lists, mostly they’ve shifted to Cohesive Fireteams. And whether I go full Kamau Core + ORC Haris (as an example) or Fusi Core + Kamau Haris depends on mission, but that Kamau Fireteam will almost always have a Hacker for me.
I know in my case I almost never take them because the Locust profile they're on is dreadful, and I play NCA. Wild Parrots themselves handily counter a lot of the biggest threats to my lists, but it simply isn't worth the cost of such an expensive unit for one shot when the Locust otherwise only offers a Submachine Gun and can't score. I bring one when I opt for three Locusts because I can at least create an opening for it with one of the others, giving it an opportunity to not run face-first into a shotgun and die.
@SpectralOwl it's not about attacking with Locust but using the ZoC measurement trick to lay down wildparrots in optimal places and triggering those wildparrots using another trooper. There is literally no risk for wildparrot operator. For example, in the last league that I participated I used Starmada (the only non-PanO faction that has access to wildparrots) Sarkos to deploy wildparrots from a rooftop without ever giving an enemy any LoF. Then some other, better armed trooper (read: bronze HMG or Epsilon) activates and provokes the ARO, triggering the mine in an optimal way which covers multiple enemy troopers. You can even combine this with the unblockable move+move->move+deployable repeater trick using croc mans. PanO, the wildparrot faction
It's more that the Locust doesn't do anything else and costs more than that Sarko FO with C+ and Camoflage. In a faction that naturally leans top-heavy because that's the only place its shooting advantage actually means anything due to the lack of positioning tools. Edit; actually the Sarko is just disgustingly underpriced in general- it's seemingly about two points over a Zero for the statline, which is crazy for 1 ARM, 3BTS, 3 CC *and* Climbing Plus.
@SpectralOwl In my opinion, Sarko is extremely underprised because you always take the cheapeast 20p option. Compared to 20p Forward observer Zero, Sarko has CC+3, ARM+1, BTS+3, Climbing+, D-charges, Shock mines -> Wildparrot and Combi->SMG. I don't know about you, but I call that power creep.
Well not everyone can have the latest toys. Also keep in mind that Starmada is seriously lacking in Hidden deployment game and mimetism-6 department. Getting those non-interactive firefights that we like all like can be a bit of a challenge. Echo Bravo wildparrot profile looks very interesting, because unlike Sarkos it's completely unkillable before it delivers its deadly non-lethal cargo.
As a fellow Starmada Main, I have to say that the inclusion of Marker State Infiltration with a Wildparrot that is also an specialist have solved so many problems the sectorial had that I am starting to believe that if the cheapest locust just got camouflage(1 use) NCA and SWF would got a suddenly spike in popularity.
That could be a possibility, Locust is always on the edge of been fine as is, but needs a little extra. As for the age old combi vs SMG, it will never get solved many say SMG is severely undercosted, I myself find every time I field one I wish I had a combi...
I would say that highly depends on what unit we are talking about; I would love to have my Triniterians back with the Combi rifle, because they were my working horses for years for button- and shooting-duty. Novadays i nearly always lack the 8 inches range to stand outside pistol/DTW/guard range with a proper rangeband. I hate it. On the other hand, unit that have zero interest in playing the shooting game just got more discounted than they already are. The most infamious example is the overly mentioned deviance hacker lady. Tbh: take away even the SMG and discount her by 2 more points, it makes no difference. SMG discount always hit on units that have no interest in using weapons, means: button smasher, CC-specialists, hackers, specialst. BUT (and thats the huge advantage to things like contender or LSG or good pistols) youare still abel to enter suppressive fire state, and in this state the unit is even better than the avarage Combi rifle due to speciall ammo. Imho the SMG should never ever be cheaper than a combi.
Combi vs. SMG can be a fair tradeoff depending on the carrying unit, but I did my maths based on the Boarding Shotgun variants of the Zero and Sarko. Zeroes tend to be good for costing comparisons among Skirmishers because of their lean statlines. As for Locusts, they're just short of useful in three areas and pay out the nose for it. They've got the maximum CC they could get without being reliable, they have excellent visual modifiers but middling and expensive weapons plus a great vulnerability to Templates, and they have good forward deployment but no Specialist profiles save the extremely vulnerable non-Marker Hackers.
not really, why fight someone in their own game if you can just not play and shoot them in the face with Tik/Karhu/Uma/Dart/Krakots instead? Weeeell, I for one treat every game like a science and Infinity doesn't score very well. Not even compared to N3. N4 increased the stakes of survival - weakening and buffing crits in the wrong situations (they don't help a Rifle vs a Jotum at all, while making a Bear's CC that much deadlier to expensive multiwound models). Should have always been a flat +MOD to Damage. - introducing better ammunition types, +B and +DAM MODs everywhere instead of where they make sense. This in turn invalidates defenses even more than N3 Crits did. - removing the ability to defend yourself with cheap bodies with no substitute. While 5 points Smoke+Chainrifle Warbands did that certainly better than a Warcor, a body that can crit an ARO is still a body that can crit an ARO. The 15 slot limit doesn't allow to 4 Warbands + Warcor for less then 10% of a 300 point budget to absorb half your oppoenent's finite first turn Order pools while retaining 270+ points to fill your own "do something" roles. - Some pieces can't be stopped by conventional means. There's nothing in the game that can realistically oppose a Cutter/Avatar/etc going first. You either need to have the tools to force the Cutter to walk into an asymetric (CC/Hacking) option or suffer the consequences of giving your opponent free reign over the table. Some Factions/Sectorials can do that, most can't against a properly played Alpha Strike with a secondary assault piece capable of punishing null deployment (which is about the worst strat you can imagine against a properly played list). - ARO options that work are either fully expendable exotics that aren't easily available everywhere (Posthumans & Puppets), Link options that can live through losing a FTF from a TAG or have a realistic chance of beating it (basically nothing that isn't a pure Link), HD able to engage on their own terms (either high quality like a Swiss, or sufficiently lethal quality/quantity mix like double/triple Noctifier...), high success chance Order sinks like mass camo, impersonation or Mates or a good mix of everything (Haqq having obvious but annoying Daylami that you can't Move-Shoot your way past, mix with IMP in your DZ, mixed with HD to keep in mind, mixed with cornerguards). Defending is also significantly harder than attacking, if you happen to have a decent table and sufficient grasp on deployment to not lose the game before rolling any dice turn 1. - Hacking is trivial to access in very high quality with great synergies like Upgrade Programs, Sixth Sense form a Core, Pitchers or Morans to relay threat from your DZ for some Sectorials while others have Combirifle + Hacking Device and no further perks for the Profile that brings Hacking and maybe 2 Flashpuls Bots to support your Hacking network. Far from every other game has these or similar problems solved, but at least they throw everything in a chaos once in a while so it stays fun. Infinity has gotten more stressful to deal with compared to even "find space for 20 pieces in your half of the table" in N3. /edit: I'm definitely not defending the state we ended N3 in. Didn't like spamming and slogging through bodies. But at least it created a somewhat equal playing field that went beyond just killing for the better half of the factions in the game. Balance wasn't great, but certainly a lot better than what N4 has to offer.
Alright I won't. I've spent the past few night putting together an analysis of hacking across factions. Where should I post it? It's too much to add onto this thread, and it covers all relevant factions.
Science would be, Observe phenomena. (winrate %) Form hypothesies. (teslas post above) (The rest of the steps are those not undertaken) Perform experiments with isolated variables and controls. Collect data. Assess and modify hypothesis based on Collected data. Present all of the above.
