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BIOMETRIC VISOR. Current Status and Suggestion

Discussion in 'Rules suggestions' started by Rabble, May 4, 2023.

  1. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Greetings to all the Infinity Community.

    As we all know, biometric visor is right now in a bad place. His intended function of being a deterrent to Impersonation is in function useless. If a trooper is in Impersonation -1, and running toward you, the +6 to discover him is welcome, but it won't stop the Imp-1 trooper to reach his intended target for assesination. Because those kind of troops have an assured two activations 'free' before they reach their target with an third activation, as being discovered in Imp-1 makes them still unable to be attack as they would end instead in Imp-2 status. Therefore a Imp-1 troop that moves 4-4, has an assured 20 inches of movement before their attack (move + move, move + move, move + attack) and no matter what amount of discover is going to stop it to doing so.

    Adding to this, a biometric visor does nothing against an Imp-2 troop, as it has no bonus. I acknoweledge the old +3 bonus to discover that all biometric visor had in N3 is now dislodged from the visor rule and added to the troop, but we are talking about N4 ruling and we have to take a look at biometric visor without the old nesting rules mind.

    Suggestion: Change Biometric Visor rules allowing the trooper to being able to declare attack to a Imp-2 troop. Or alternatively, if this is too powerful, change Biometric Visor so a succesful Discover removes the Imp-1 status to non marker status directly. Therefore allowing a Biometric Visor troop declare Discover + Attack to an Imp-1 status marker.

    This would inmediately spike the popularity of Biometric Visor, allowing it to be a real countermeasure to Impersonation troops. And a Impersonation marker troop would fear getting exposed to a Biometric Visor, making those Impersonation rushes something they need to calculate and navigate to avoid them, instead of just ignoring the presence of any Biometric Visor troop altogether.
     
  2. StephanDahl

    StephanDahl Well-Known Member

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    I like the second idea (Biometric Visor vs Imp-1 removes it entirely).
     
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  3. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    I would go another way (and i say it as frequent IMP user)

    Remove the double layer of IMP1
    The skill could become Impersonation (X) and be good enough all the same.

    Then, the BMV could be left unaltered. Ignore X and ignore Surprise Attack from users of IMP skill.

    End of story...

    Edit: minor fix to explain better
     
    #3 tox, May 4, 2023
    Last edited: May 4, 2023
  4. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    This would be another solution for the issue. Although instead of buffing Biometric Visor, your proposal would be a general nerf to Impersonation. In the end it would lay on what CB is willing to do.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Moved to rules suggestions thread.

    For me the easiest fix would be to keep Biometric visor as is and in addition prevent the deployment of impersonation markers in ZoC of the Biometric Visor model.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea, although I would amend it to no opposing models or markers can deploy within ZoC rather than markers because otherwise you can just circumvent it by impersonating to deploy without using the marker state and you're back to square 1.

    It's certainly a more interesting idea than simply stripping marker states anyway, and it would make the equipment less niche as it would also work against units like Grunts, Rokots, and Airborne troops.
     
  7. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

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    This is my favorite fix from the thread. The rules are easier and it works in a similar way to the Mimetism / MVS couple.
     
  8. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    That's the worst solution imo. It would either force you to keep the BMV trooper in reserve, taking that slot from another model that you'd rather keep there. Or the opponent would simply wait for you to deploy your BMV trooper and then put his IMP trooper on the other side of the DZ.

    I second the wish to make BMV stronger (aka actually useful). It's a piece of equipment that doesn't do what it's supposed to do.

    I also like the solution to allow BMV troopers to simply declare Discover(+9) (+6 through BV, +3 for discover)+BS Attack against IMP-1.

    Against IMP-2, however, I would give it a better bonus as well. Either another +3 for a total of +6, or even an automatic Discover+BS Attack like MSV3 against Camouflage.

    Changing BMV like that is imo the easiest to implement, most elegant, and doesn't need a lot of other rules to be rewritten.

    @tox While I initially liked your idea, I think it would require too much reshuffling. Current IMP-2 troopers would have to be rebalanced against current IMP-1 troopers, the rules for IMP would have to be rewritten as well, and an interesting part of differentiation between IMP-2 and IMP-1 troopers would be lost. Rather just change the BMV
     
  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Since the "Species" basis limitation has been lifted, it already lost a lot of the original flavour. I would go fully-streamline, it's way more simpler, affects only ONE rule and need rework of a very limited number of profiles.
     
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  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Keeping the BMV trooper in reserve would accomplish nothing, if the impersonator is already deployed you cannot force him out the whole ide would be the model creates a ZoC bubble were Impersonators cannot deploy, so you either force your opponent to commit the Impersonator before the BMV trooper deploys or to know that the BMV will restrict their deployment.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    One of the biggest issue with Biometric visor is that it's often on bloated troopers that don't trade so well.

    Take the Bao for example 22-24 points for the cheaper ones.

    If the Impersonator player goes first, your visor does nothing.
    If the Impersonator player goes second, they can deploy in a way that you can only see the Impersonator within 8", and you're kinda forced to trade with it (after spending order to move there, Discover once, then Discover-Shoot).

    If Biometric visor were on like a sync'ed bot that follows the trooper around for example, it would be quite good, cause you could Discover and then trade a cheap warband for the Impersonator.
     
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  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Have Biovisor allow the trooper to shoot at an impersonating trooper as if they weren't in a marker state at all.

    Yes, it might mean that the person using the impersonator might have to use at least three brain cells to position them to avoid the biovisor trooper, but they've only got the entire table to deploy on to do it.

    Impersonation would still be far and away the strongest rule in the game.
     
    #12 Weathercock, May 5, 2023
    Last edited: May 5, 2023
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  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That would be inconsistent with MSV3, it could work the same way though.
     
  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    It then turns to whoever deploys last.
    • If Impersonator, then the model can be tucked away somewhere where there will be no way for Biovisor to draw LoS on them.
    • If Biovisor, well, either the Impersonator player anticipated that, and then see above, or the Impersonator is effectively toast as soon as they decide to activate.
    Also, this certainly is going to level the field against Impersonators... but only for the factions who have access to Biovisors. And not all of them do.

    From my POV as (among others) a Hassassin Bahram player, Hassassin Fiday Impersonators have a couple noticeable weaknesses:
    1. They are Order-intensive to use. Sure, they can be often deployed close to an initial target, but getting close to a next target is going to be problematic.
    2. They are fragile: Impersonation is the only thing that really protects them.
    3. They don't do well against targets who are competent in CC, well armored or multi-Wound.
    4. They don't do well if faced with multiple opponents. Especially if 6th Sense is a thing (Core Fireteams of 4+ models).
    Yes, a Fiday can absolutely murder a typical Order Monkey, but other than that, he's far from being a "push-to-win button".

    Speculo Killers are more dangerous to well-protected targets thanks to their Mono-CCW. They can also stand back up due to Regeneration.
    The Tohaa / Sygmaa Impersonators don't really ace in Close Combat.

    All in all, I see them as an equivalent to Camo Infiltrators in general use, but typically with less interesting equipment, and narrower role, although their double-layer Marker State provides them with more effective protection - and they don't activate Deployables.
     
    #14 Errhile, May 5, 2023
    Last edited: May 5, 2023
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  15. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully for the Impersonator, most are undercosted enough that even if they only get their guaranteed attack against their primary target, they've still done their job. Besides, marker states are the best form of resilience in the game, and Impersonators gain extra levels of protection through not just the redundant marker layer, but also the inability to be affected by the traditional counters for assassins.

    Compare the cost and functionality of any infiltrator. You pay an incredibly low price for a 100% chance to deploy anywhere outside the enemy DZ. Even Kitsune fails 20% of the time, and she's the most expensive single-wound trooper in the game and often regarded as the scariest assassin . You could increase the cost of any Impersonator in the game by 10 points, and they'd still be incredible. Jaan Staar could be 50 points, and I'd still count him among the top-10 best profiles in the entire game (and he doesn't even get IMP-1!).

    If a single Biovisor under my suggested change being positioned to counter deploy your Impersonator is enough to stop your attack run entirely, then it's a player creativity issue, not an issue with the potency of my proposition. Especially since all the factions that get Impersonators to begin with already come with an extremely potent range of conventional attack options on top to help clear the path. Regular skirmishers in lesser factions still have to work around mines and other counters, and they do just fine.


    You can already freely declare attacks against marker-state troopers in the Holoecho state, and we all know how mines work. The application here could be no different.
    Besides, it's not like anyone paying for MSV3 wouldn't be happy to pay significantly less to have it removed from the game and go down to MSV2.
    The only Biometric Visor equipped troopers in the game that can actually afford to make a trade against an Impersonator and not be at a guaranteed loss in the trade are the Daemonhost and Teucer. Since IMP1 is guaranteed 12" of movement with no threat from deployables, they can start directly outside the enemy DZ with no uncertainty, and IMP1's redundant marker state invalidates the guessing game between discover/delay, any potential threat to Impersonation needs to be able to act decisively and immediately with minimal ambiguity, otherwise it cannot properly be considered a threat.
     
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  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Holoecho state is not the same, MSV3 was like what you describe it allowed to attack camouflage markers without discovering, it was changed to be an auto discover check to create consistency with the rules, I think BMV automatically discovering impersonation markers stripping them from all levels of Impersonation is more consistent than shooting them without discovery.
     
  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    How is holoecho not the same? It's a marker state. It just specifically allows you to attack and enter contact with them. Just allow Biometric visor to apply the same or similar exception.

    You cannot make Biometric Visor consistent with the functionality of MSV because they deal with their associated threats differently. In addition to MSV's added functionality in negating smoke and mimetism, MSV3 (and MSV in general) is provided to troopers that don't typically have to put themselves directly in their target's ideal threat range, while the users of biovisors overwhelmingly do; and on top of that, camoflage marker state troopers have additional counters they must play around (deployables) and do not typically start with a guaranteed attack run.

    For biovisors to be useful, they need to be able to actually intercept the threat and make the impersonating threat less capable of abusing the guaranteed nature of its ability. Simply automatically discovering is not enough, since it still ensures that the Impersonator can freely move at least 12" and attack their desired target before facing reprisal.
     
  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Because holoecho is a marker state that specifically allows to be attacked.
     
  19. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Okay then. Then we can make Impersonators specifically allow themselves to be attacked by models with Biometric Visors, too.
     
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  20. SpectralOwl

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    This is the big thing. Currently BioVisors are only useful on units directly targeted by an Impersonator as it lets them avoid MODs. To be useful on any unit that is not a target, they need to be able to shoot down or impair an Impersonator/KHD in such a way that the Impersonator cannot reach the target without elevated risk.
    Either solution requires a rules inconsistency. Either you're ignoring the Impersonation "cannot target with Attacks" rule, or the "IMM-1 is converted into IMM-2 when discovered" rule. Personally I'm inclined to favour the defender given Infinity's current tendency to reward early aggression, especially in the backfield, and Biometric Visor's total nonexistence on forward units.
     
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