Ranking YJ characters

Agreed with the others, that table is on the low end of terrain and has overly generous sniper lanes. It certainly was a choice to make the side with the most generous sniper spots also have the most protected access to the objectives.

Not that I think the table set up makes pitcher tactics easier. The critical point here is that the close side has free sight to most buildings on the far side that are designed to be the deployment area from a small area near the middle of the board. Removing this through table design is very difficult as it requires the total cover to be located more than 8" from the deployment areas. You essentially need to not just put terrain down to provide cover for miniatures, but you need to put cover down for the miniature's cover because the repeater area is so large.

The reverse also seems to be true. There's nowhere to hide from a Pitcher dude near the central lane.

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Sun Tze has a fine enough stat line. The price is an issue, though. Since his combat stats are poor and his ability to tank damage is remarkably mediocre for a Total Immunity unit as a result, this demands compensatory efforts such as Chain of Command or Holomask doubles. Now, ISS has a hard time with the 15 slot limit, more so than I'd say any other faction, so having a character that's an expert only in standing still is itself a pretty huge detriment - especially when potential Holomask doubles really want to forward deploy or get into Fireteams.

 

Man, I'm more than 14 years into this game, I'm broadly known in Spain due to that. Of course I fucking know pitchers are damn overpowered int this edition. I'm not saying Sun is Good for any mission and any rival, But you need to work around it, an He's clearly decent for some misions. Specially those hat have an infinite High building in the middle that cuts the LoF of any hacker with one pitcher

1. That's clearly a Wide open table. At the base of the photo, that one TR bot has control of all entrances to his half of the table plus it controls all the middle section of the opponent's side. A medium dense table would at least cut that in half and a clustered table would make long range weapons almost irrelevant since the most prominent range band would be 40cm or 16''
2. You clearly don't understand the power of delay deployment with strategos and the use of a bait. I'm pretty sure your opponent is not gonna deploy his pitcher hacker as last miniature if you go first. He just simply can't know what version of sun you are using, and if you go second you will now in advance what are the opponent's path of advance, and thus place your pieces to halt it's movements.
3. a repeater would not affect when the opponent uses repeaters, but it surely protects you in almost any other situation. combat jump hackers
4. And regarding Yujing hackers... Wow, ISS especially, has the best hackers of yujing. WIP14 and BTS3 is the average and the base cost is just 18 points. It has hidden deployment hackers and solo sixth sense hackers... They may pale in comparison to nomads, aleph or EC but they're clearly far from bad, and clearly better than IA or WB. The main problem is the usual. everything in yujing costs above average.

objectively, without limitations to member size in a list, 2 chaiyi and a zhanshi are better than a daoying, sitting in the back of you deployment without doing nothing due to fear. once you loose your only NCO you'll end up having a nice coward paperweight. That's the sole reason daoying is currently better. Space on your list is another resource such as point cost and swc. From that perspective an aggresive LT and a CoC is another workaround. You're simply denying Gao's use or viability due to personal preference and personal bias.

I'm just saying that using a Shanji has it's own problems as using Gao has. but if you loose the shangji the fireteam looses proficiency in other areas, like hacking defense/offense while Gaos team doesn't. And there are points in favor to use gao in some list building.

And when you put my scrap examples as a point you're not seeing the the wide picture. those teams can be torn apart and changed. there's nothing rigid about it. It's just a comparison of two builds into a similar frame. they're not something rigid.

And I'm not saying you should stop using your preferences as base to your lists. I'm just saying gao is as valid as the shangji but wit other drawbacks. It's unfair to frame him as trash. In my opinion gao belongs to the same category as Taisheng because the work pretty well together and later I don't find reasons to align her without gao. too many NCO options in the factions and bixie and krit are broadly better towards classifieds.

 

It absolutely is. There are several DZ to DZ fire lanes judging from the angle the pic was taken at. I feel like CB needs to more clearly define and establish their expectations for terrain layout going forward.

 

I agree he's a complicated piece that needs a list build around him. 55 points are no joke. but he used to cost 65. At the time It was an improvement and encouraged me to use it. and currently I'm thinking his problems are not mainly his but of his sectorial.

ISS has clearly gown old. Putting a 5 member core to enable B2 smoke on 14s is a joke for the main engine of a list. I end up filling it with wildcards to get something more from what is actually 1/3 of the space of the list.

There's a general lack of long range AP weaponry that needs to be compensated with multi, breaker and CC. Thus the unavoidable need of smoke or competent skirmishers to take early aro pieces

Kanren are CC fusiliers in the middle of the table and lack the capability to halt the enemy if you try to make them specialists. and the ninja are still too expensive and too unreliable.

the current version of ISS tends towards aleph to solve those problems but the core of the sectorial keeps bad the roots, and makes dificult the engine to work properly even without introducing fancy pieces like suntze or sujian. there would be no problem to introduce 50p pieces if the core of the sectorial were solid

 

Tables should be asymmetric in value to put value on getting to choose deployment sides.

He's literally one of the worst options to play on objective room missions. Being forced into an 8" box of death that is repeater bait is the worst possible thing to do to him. As you said, you need to "work around it" he's a handicap not an asset.

I get that you're unfamiliar with hackers and a hacking heavy environment but people with hackers tend to have multiple pitchers/deprep/panda/repeater vectors. Granted you think ISS is good at hacking so I can see where this confusion stems from, but factions that are actually good at hacking have wide access to repeater networks. Even in faction Vanilla and WB are by far superior to ISS because of the repeater minelayer options we got in N4.

At what point did we even start discussing people running or dropping hackers into him? The problem is offensive repeater projection being used to punk this awful model.

Ok, so to explain hacking for people who don't really get it. N4 hacking revolves around repeaters. ISS is bad at hacking even compared to other Yu Jing sectorials, they lack the ability to manipulate the game with repeaters. ISS cannot force project effectively. Units like Krit and the Guilang are essential to making a sectorial a decent hacking contender.

You're still trying to argue paying 30+ points for CoC to sit at the back of the table is good, which it isn't it's terrible. Or you're trying to argue you use the CoC option with your LT and get them killed together like a chump. I'm sorry dude, it's bad that's just facts.The Shang Ji and Daoying are superior without question.

If you wanna jump through hoops handicapping yourself with Gao by all means you do you, but it's still a handicap.

 

Man, quit the crap. I'm not unfamiliar with anything in this game. You're probably the one who has not experienced this game outside your niche. It seems on your local meta ariadna, haqqislam or pano doesn't exist.
I just simply don't make the fuss over something that is not so big as you try to put it. If you know your list, if you see the table and if you know your adversary faction you can work around it.
If my rival spends some pitchers, 5+ orders trying to isolate my WIP 17 LT even knowing I have a CoC and I can reset at 8s even under isolated that's his bet. If sun takes 5 orders of a max of 15(+/-2) hes doing as good of a job as a Yanhuo. If my rival tries to mark and put some misiles into him? nice! some opportunities to reset while tanking those misiles with total immunity. If he tries to take him out, hes gonna pay fully and not do anything else unless he has top luck.

In my opinion he'll be more intelligent trying to put repeaters on my way to the room. then I'll be the one in need to waste resources triying to take those out before making my move. But In ISS sacrificing a kuangshi an a couple dedicated orders is generally all that it takes to solve a repeater in a near worse case scenario.

In ISS my main problems are not protecting sunze. My main problem is dealing with aro pieces from long range when I'll probably rely on spitfires on infantry or HMG on remotes. A pitcher close to a fireteam of dakinis or near a Sujian. It's more cripling to my plans than an isolated suntze.

• If the rival has visors as ARO there's no way to smoke to get to range advantage
• If the rival has an HI as ARO piece I'll be wasting a lot of orders to deal with if luck is not on my side
• how will I hold enemy skirmishers with a weak mid table and an average reactive fire?

Framing a troop of being useless in that manner is blindsided

 

You say this but everything that you talk about shows you have a clear low understanding of hacking and its effects, from misunderstanding what actually makes a hacking faction strong to clear vulnerabilities against hacking to what factions are even good at hacking.

Besides the fact that we're discussing units in a global sense of needing to perform against all opponents, are you trying to argue Haqqislam are poor at hacking? You know they're a faction that core links dirt cheap pitchers and has upgraded hacking programs, right? Riiiight? At the last tournament I ran Qapu Khalqi were present running the full pure core Druze pitcher team plus the tinbot -6 Brigada.

If you've spent a minimum of 85 points on two largely combat ineffective troops, congratulations, you've written a terrible list and your opponent is already ahead without even rolling dice.

This is a fair point that you should be more worried about your Dakinis or Su Jian getting alpha struck and crippling your list. You know why? Because you spent 85 points on a combat ineffective oblivion bait LT and CoC instead of backup fighters.

Once again: Sun Tze is a handicap. Your attempts at arguing Sun Tze might be good because you think he's viable specifically against a faction that can't hack and won't murder him with a warband in an objective room so.... pretty much Pan-O is a very unconvincing argument.

 

You're thinking about the non-LT profiles, I believe. He did get a 1 point price drop, but the BSG profile is still the same cost.
Sun2 on the other hand... 10 points. Now I really miss the Multi Rifle profile, at that price I'd be interested in that as a simple brawler.

Yes, but from the angle presented it does look fairly stacked for one side and you got the shafted one. :)

 

I actually chose that side. There are firelanes to my side of the table but they are for the most part quite narrow, cautious move and/or camo makes them fairly trivial to bypass. I wanted the denser side because I was going second and wanted to set up a series of short range ARO areas, taking the more open side would force me into defending longer lanes which would allow my opponent to simply crush me with the BS19 Bolt on the active turn.

EDIT: to be clearer I lost the WIP roll, opponent chose deployment sides. I wanted to go second because of the mission, didn't actually get to choose the side but it was the one I wanted for going second so getting it gave me the option to do that.

 

I have used Qiang Gao as LT in White Banner, he ahs potential, but because I used him specifically for a list for Panic Room and he had to be in the fireteam that would go in the Panic Room I ended up replacing him with a Zhanshi LT, I wonder if he could be used as a LT in a Haris.

 

There's only two ways of putting a brigada on a fireteam inside Qapu.

• Faking it with a hafza (out of druze fireteam, no hacking benefit there and a wasted os holomask)
• Cheating

You're welcome

 

Reread what was written because you've clearly misread it.

You're welcome.

 

I think a coma might be missing here and there, never the less.

Please stop, it is getting close to, if not already at, personal attacks between yourselves, calm down and reengage in your discussion.

 

The pure Druze team provides accurate long range repeaters and Sixth Sense hackers
The Mobile Brigada hacker is solo, but thanks to the tinbot-6 they are strong enough to make life a misery to any KHD that tries to fry the Druze hacker through the QK player's repeater. It's also not a shabby late-game brawler and can score loads of cards.