I feel like this warrants a gentle prodding of our favourite superwarcor. @Koni What will be the material for the demonologist and her pet? It's an S4 base, but basically two S2 figures. Will we get them in metal or one of the plastics?
I am happy with the huge amount of Sectorial-only models and profiles. I like that it allows factions to have a greater design space outside of Vanilla. (Even as a vanilla player.)
My advice, honestly, is take these forums with a hefty pinch of salt. It's very reactive, doom and gloomy, and it has a lot of people who drown out discussion with complaints. Infinity the game is amazing, the balance passes are frequent and effective, the CB team really care and are a cool bunch of people you can get behind, the actual real-life meta allows for lots of clever off-brand play, etc. Yes, CA, Tohaa and Aleph are very strong atm, but there are a whole host of factions that can easily win a 1- or 2-day tournament. Bakunin for example. The big majority of the best players in my country (UK) basically never come on the forums, and I'm pretty sure that generalises. It's a shame, because it effectively means that complaints are outweighing expertise, but that's a forum thing, not a game thing.
Can't overstate this point enough I think. As pessimistic as I can get about the development direction, I've actually won my last several games against upper-end factions outside of tournament situations. Skill, smart decision making and luck all have more impact on the outcome than corporate product pushing, which is a good place to be for a wargame, and you can still have a lot of fun. It's not quite as good as it used to be in terms of balance, but it *used* to be so good that a solid player could actually use randomly generated nonsense lists and have a fair chance of winning. Wishing for better is only natural, but this game is still good enough to hold the attention of thousands.
That sounds entirely like you have no evidence and are putting this all on a pretty baseless supposition
I just won a tournament (Supplies, Cryogenics & Frostbyte) with the new Bakunin troops sprinkled into an old list and a completely untestet Moira core list. Spoiler: Lists Zoes Frostbite v2.0 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 1 1 RIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) ORPHAN (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Marksman Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) MODERATOR (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MODERATOR Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 6) ZERO (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 24) ZOE FTO & Π-WELL FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 44) ZOE FTO (Hacker) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 25) Π-WELL FTO Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse(+1B), Pitcher / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 19) ZONDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 2 5 1 1 AVICENNA Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) BRAN DO CASTRO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 32) INITIATED (Surprise Attack [-3], Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration, Minelayer) Submachine Gun ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 6) SIN-EATER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) ZONDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Nunsploitation ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 1 2 KUSANAGI Spitfire, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 41) MOTHER AGATHA Breaker Combi Rifle, Pulzar / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 39) REVEREND MOIRA MULTI Sniper Rifle, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) REVEREND MOIRA MULTI Rifle, E/M Grenade Launcher, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 28) CENOBITE Chain Rifle(+1B), Flash Pulse / Heavy Pistol(+1B), DA CC Weapon. (0 | 21) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 6) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) ZERO (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) ZERO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22) GROUP 2 5 1 1 MODERATOR (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 9) MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 6) VERTIGO ZOND Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) ZOE FTO & Π-WELL FTO undefined / undefined. (0.5 | 44) ZOE FTO (Hacker) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 25) Π-WELL FTO Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse(+1B), Pitcher / PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 19) ZONDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Some weeks ago I did not expect that I would be quite satisfied with the way BJC got updated. I feared that BJC would become a religion-centered MO-like sectorial while loosing all the Punk-part out of "Cyberpunk". I am very glad I was wrong. - Fireteams for non-Observance Profiles are mostly unchanged (changes done are mostly additions like Orphans to a Moderator/RG core or Robin Hook to Chaksas) - Moderators got a BSG profile - Bran do Castro Profile was updated (never used him before, but I will give the new profile a try) - I am now able to choose between Fiddler (fast button pusher) and Robin Hook (fast Midfield control) in my lists depending on the mission The only Observance Profile that ever made it into my BJC Lists before the rework was the Custodier Hacker Lt. - but I will definitely try to incorporate an Orphan into my RiotGrrl/Moderator Core/Haris. I still do not like the religious asthetics of the Observance for Bakunin (models are really great, but asthetics collide with the Cyberpunk feeling I love) - but that does not matter as I am still able to field a competitive BJC list (nearly) without them.
You are someone i Know played pre-revamp Bakunin a lot, how did it "feel"? Is it still bakunin or does it feel completly off the rails? Was every match a straightup downhill fight with avalange-like victories like nearly the whole Forum expects? would like to hear from your experience
Well, they're the only faction I played regularily since 2014 So in all three games I chose the 1st turn either by winning the Lt. roll (Game 1 and 2) or by luckily being forced to deploy first (Frostbyte) this tactic was my Plan A for cryogenics and Frostbyte anyways since both missions generally favor the 1st turn. In Game 1 and 2 I played the Moderator core List. Here Bran do Castro proved to be still the 50:50 performer although exposing him to BS-Attack AROs felt less nerve wracking than before, unfortunately I had no chance or reason to move him vertically to any spots so I wasn't able to convincingly whine about the loss of his Climbing Plus. The Orphan did not much since the Riot Grrl proved to be the real working horse of the Fireteam, although in Game 1 the Orphan successfully killed a Bluecoat. The Initiated on the other hand proved her value: despite dying in both games she enabled me to either lock down troopers by placing a second repeater close to the opponent's DZ in Game 1 or ind Game 2 she just took out the Opponent's Lieutenant and Master Breacher in one Hail Mary of the Knife suicide action. I think those tactics work pretty well with her. In Game 3 I then HAD to take the Nunsploitation list since my opponent played the Military Orders ;) The list was also reiterated from an old (Moira core) list and here I had so many points free that I got a bit confusedby the new choices. The only thing I knew was that the Custodia is still of not much worth for me since she remains too vulnerable against hacking compared to the cheaper Zoe. The Moiras performed in the same manner as you'd expect them: they shot at stuff and killed it, and since they didn't get hit they didn't die. Also the E/M GL Moira was lucky and bricked the opponent's Tikbalang with a speculative Attack. Kusanagi was felled by some ARO crits which was totally my fault since I refused to use Agatha Wabara's medical talent to heal Kusanagi after the first Crit. The Cenobite was similarily unused during the Game and mostly just stood at a corner hoping to use her Flash Pulse or Chain Rifle. Thus in summary both lists felt like the Bakunin lists I played before, only that my Moderator list showed more potential for an aggressive approach thanks to Bran and the Initiate. Oh, and as a sidenote: I used the Vertigo's Guided attack only twice during the whole tournament. In the last game just because a single little holo terrain piece blocked the LOF to the previously FOed Sepulchre Knight
Glad to see someone who actually took the time to play them giving an honest opinion. The forum is degenerating to a point it seems like no one here plays the game anymore but is always crying about one profile or another. I for myself haven't played but I want to give you an even more unbiased opinion from two new players. I just run a demo this week, Bakunin vs Morat. Both were new players and this was their second game of N4 and first introduction to fireteams, hacking and specialists. They played Highly Classified with 10 order lists. The bakunin list was running pretty much the contents of the box + Wabara, but trading the sin-eater for a second rocket launcher cenobyte to haris with the Penitent and the Orphan. I wondered if the core team with pure bonuses would be too oppresive for a new player, and the bakunin player actually deployed the moira sniper and the cenobite RL close by, adding even more tightly packed defense. Despite my worries the game pretty much went into Morat's favor, as the Dartok run wild hacking the nomad HIs. The suryats and cenobytes started trading rocket shots with pretty much 50/50 chances of hits for each side and many casualties from the game were actually from poorly positioned troopers near the actual targets of the blasts. Wabara failed to heal his only medikit shot from the game (yay, upcosted traumadoc granny!) and overall the game was great fun. None of the players felt like they "never had chances" to play, and overall the casualties on both sides were mostly equal. I really enjoyed what I saw and I'm really looking forward to play the new fireteams. Reverend fireteams now feel more solid and look like they can withstand some damage so I wouldn't feel like I'm handicapping myself playing them instead of Riots.
I took them to a tournament last week, got a loss vs Tohaa in Frostbyte (in my defence, he won the tournament!) 5-3, a draw vs NCA at a custom mission (he had the bye... thus ending round two in perfect equilibrium lol) 4-4 and then an 8-0 win for me in R3 vs USARF at Frostbyte I think the new stuff is good. I wouldn't describe it as OP. That said I do feel like the meta is shifting towards mimetism in links (this is part of that) and therefore MSV and gunfighting is more important.
I agree with this sentiment. I think this gets lost quite a bit in the back and forth of text. It also becomes an issue of development style of Corvus Belli means that some players feel left behind on their purchases struggling against newer designs and concepts. Personally, my PanO feels very neglected. 5 sectorials with a lot of overlapping units, 3 sectorials that haven't been touched since the general N4 update, 1 sectorial that keeps getting remade without actually fixing any core issues and one with extreme design limits. Overall, not great. My play group has similar issues where things just sit for ages with most of their stuff. They also feel the pinch of factions enjoying what seems like abundant love while they feel restricted. It also took way too long for fireteam rules to be released and the distribution of counts as is pretty awful where some factions have plentiful and other are basically zero making them feel further neglect. Overall, CB needs to address the way it handles things in terms of releases and faction balance/attention.
100% agreed. CB is really bad about updating things across the board. It's you either have new models to sell and you get update after update, or you are getting almost nothing until you do.
Agreed. It certainly feels like by n3 infinity had got too big for CB to really keep on top of. When aristeia and all the KS stuff kicked in it felt like it took more of a backseat. Edition changes and fireteam docs meant that not every faction got an equal transition. Several were very slap dash, some were very good. The crap stuff doesn't get much of a retrospective tweak or update, it just sits there languishing.
I just want to say I don’t think Nomads win because of their army. I think they win a lot mostly due to just having more players. They are popular and have been for a long time. There’s no problem with that! One of them needs to be. It's only bad if they just keep getting more attention and the rest of the factions of the game keep getting ignored. Well not Combined because they are up there with Nomads in getting attention. But hey, CB needs to make money to keep the game going. I just hope they balance it a bit with others. I think the last couple big cons, where the odd faction has won, can somewhat prove it’s the player and not the faction that wins. If you don’t already know, ForCo won Adepticon. I believe it was ISS that recently won a big one too. I was at Adepticon and saw there was many Nomad players as well. Mostly vanilla and Corregidor I think. I have no clue yet how they did.
Fortunately the game is balanced overall enough that forces which haven't gotten recent balance passes are still playable. Yes, you wait a couple years between big release waves. Whoop-ti-doo. I picked Bakunin last year because they were a bit neglected but still totally playable, which tended to make players who listen to forum opinions underestimate them (that's all done now, sigh). Now they've got new shiny toys after a few without. I'm probably switching over to White Banner after this ITS season for similar reasons. Publishing and managing rolling renewing rulesets for and production of a massive catalog of game pieces is hard. CB do a better job of it than any miniatures game company that I've got experience with.
Bakunin has been good since Riot Grrls and Chimera. I don't think anyone thought they had no winning units. However there are some that severely lack in competitive tools. Hell, CB's own data shows a large disparity similar to 40k's best and worst. Yes, it's not the end of the world, but on the other hand waiting 3 years for anything to get touched sucks. It really sucks. Hipster cred is great, but there are actual underperforming things out there. There are profiles that almost never get used and/or are plainly bad. The focus should be on fixing those up and making them worth using, not just on releasing new better things to push sales.
Tried out the Stigmata and Orphan as a Duo yesterday btw (and the Initiate with deployable repeater to extend hacking area). The Stigmata is an odd duck, and it will take a while to get used to. The rest of your list will matter more for it than would for a normal TAG; you need good hacker support. The HRL isn't high Burst enough to blast ranged ARO foes off the table or hard hitting enough in ARO to be a serious threat. The split between hanging back a bit with a normal TAG and charging in to do Specialist objective stuff or hacker stuff causes a bit of cognitive dissonance for me. Gonna need to play this a few times to feel out the right distance and advance/retreat patterns, and to decide whether the opportunity cost is worth it. The Orphan with repeater is awesome, perfect partner for the Stigmata. The camo infiltrator Initiate with deployable repeater does what it says on the tin. Feels a lot like Morans, but with actual marker to protect your order pool a bit. I'm less likely to use it again with the Stigmata, but it will be handy with my usual linked-Zoe-Riot-Tinbot roadblock core link.
What are your suggestions for devoting development and production team resources in a manner that would support every single faction all the time, or even most-of-the-time enough that there are not 2-3 year gaps in support for some factions? Because that's the core issue here, and it's not an easy one to solve. That's why I'd say CB do it quite well for a small-midsized company, especially one trying to diversify into various product lines to be more resilient and grow their resources (which is a must if you want the company to survive). A rolling 3-year timeline for faction renewal is not the end of the world IMO, especially if there are minor tweaks in there when core rules change (which there have been for every faction this year).
Nomads overall have issues getting placements in tourneys. To restate my thesis, I believe that certain factions have the ability to exploit Nomads weakness in ways that keeps them down. This doesn't do much for factions that can't exploit said weakness as this is more of an external rock paper scissors than internal units. Nomads can put up a thick defense that can result in the other player being unable to deal with it in a timely and proper manner. One of my more recent tournaments I ran into a tunguska list that more or less pinned me down through hacking, direct fire and other means that meant I couldn't breach the midfield in time to do the mission. The balance comes from the strength of the core mechanics. Different metas, tables and a number of other factors swing the game wildly making absolute statements hard to quantify at times. That said, the scraping we've gotten from ITS data has shown a stark disparity in win percentages. CB also knows who the big winners are. The imbalance in Infinity is not "faction x will defeat faction y ever time." Its more of "faction x doesn't have tools to deal with problem y meaning they have to use z." There's issues with that conceptualization though as not everyone is laboring under similar levels of restrictions and not all restrictions carry the same values. Further complicate that with access to lets say, "enhanced" characteristics that swing extremely hard like say impersonators. These extra options create new tools beyond the core set which can create further issues for particular armies. Keeping in theme, nomads are hit extra hard by impersonators as they don't have a strong LT pool which means its fairly obvious where it is and the loss of it is crippling. FAQs and the fireteam rules are hardly core rule tweaks. We needed those ft rules for ages to solidify their functioning in N4. FAQs and errata are cleaning up the core rules and fixing issues. They shouldn't be seen as a revision of the core rules themselves. That is more appropriate for their book releases but the last book didn't really change or add much by itself. Outside of those very particular pieces of updates, its been 3 years and very small sporadic balance tweaks and profile changes have occured outside of the factions being worked on and there's very little context to them. This really isn't healthy for the game to just sit like this when there are issues that just don't get addressed.
