1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pano tag fix

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by The Holy Knight, Feb 18, 2023.

  1. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    1,833
    You definitely have much more experience with NCA than I, but what is wrong with the Deva and/or Bolt KHD for Hacking defense? They seem fine for their point value (mid-20s). Auxilia also for close up defense. What am I missing?

    For Vanilla, what is support they don't have? There are minelayers, KHDs, auxbots, the beasthunter, Liang Kai, and the monstrucker? From an outsider's perspective, it feels like Vanilla PanO's TAGs are in the best place they ever been.
     
  2. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    Vanilla has it better than any of the Sectorials save maybe Acon with its good Minelayer access (I'd forgotten about Regulars!) and redundant Engineers, but still suffers from an inability to defend against Hacking. (As you can tell, I'm an NCA player and don't know all the minutiae of the other Sectorials).

    The reason Minelayer is so important is that it functions through Smoke. Many factions can pair a dangerous CC threat with Smoke in the same Fireteam these days, or outgun any ARO threat save the expensive Bolt link you probably can't put in the same list as a TAG without running short on Orders anyway and rush you with a Warband. And not even forking out for an expensive MSV babysitter (I use a Black Friar in NCA to watch my Squalo) helps if you're up against Steel Phalanx, Tohaa or a specialised Character thanks to Eclipse Smoke. If the enemy don't have Smoke and the means to exploit it, or in less top-heavy lists that aren't worth an Order-draining decapitation strike against, Auxilia are great defenders that can also lead a push to secure the midfield.

    The Deva and Bolt suffer from the same issue that plagues every Killer Hacker in the game right now; the KoJ, Interventor and Jazz exist. Trinity, especially in ARO, has very little chance of wounding elite Hacking threats, which means you can't count on such a Hacker even slowing down the most common and powerful Hacking lists. It works against standard Hackers in the midfield, but those seem to be getting rarer. My usual solution is to take the Hexa KHD and/or Swiss Guard Hacker; the Hidden Deployment and marker state allow you to pick your fights better and save your Hackers for a time where they can actually help, but that leaves my Squalo hoping to win a lot of coin-flips against Spotlight or Oblivion. If you can't get a Marker Hacker, take the cheapest Hacking Devices you can fit in your list without maiming Fireteams; they're all equally bad when compared with something CB bothered to optimise, and the best are only marginally better against regular foes since you'll often be facing Oblivion instead of Trinity. If you can guarantee operation through your own Repeaters a Bolt can shine though, since BTS6 plus Firewall is tanky enough to rely on your saves rather than your inferior Programs and ARO Burst.

    Playing a TAG list in NCA certainly isn't bad, but it's a definite uphill battle requiring more mastery of the basic rules than I have ever needed elsewhere, because you are at a distinct disadvantage in every area of the game save shooting. Must-takes in NCA TAG lists are your lone Machinist (always take the Veteran upgrade if you can afford it), at least one reliable Unhackable gunfighter to clear out Repeaters where your TAGs will need to operate (usually my CoC Bolt or maybe a Black Friar), a carefully-balanced Hacking network to slow down Hackers and Hackables without needing to forfeit when you see Nomads in your tournament bracket, and a few Auxilia/CSUs/Fireteams to provide token physical security- TAGs are sturdy enough to help with long-range ARO. In play, you need to be aggressive without overextending, using your TAG to deplete the enemy's Order supply and options quickly and using its tough armour, BS and Suppression to slow down enemy scoring in reactive, because your own Specialists need far more Orders to do their own work than most others, being almost universally DZ-deployed infantry and often Hackable alongside the infamous PanO WIP. In my experience the Squalo works better than the Uhlan, able to pull more weight defensively- NCA's biggest weakness is its truly awful scoring efficiency, paired with the lack of extra Orders accessible to the faction you must be doing work in the enemy's turn to get ahead.
     
    Golem2God and Brokenwolf like this.
  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    1,833
    Loss of Lieutenant episode 89 has a good interview with the Vanilla Pano 4th place Finisher of CanCon 23. He talks about some of the benefits of PanO TAGs and how he builds a list around them. It is a good listen.
     
    chromedog, Jumara, Golem2God and 2 others like this.
  4. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    I might have to give it a listen, my tactics either come from my own experience or daboarder's old tacticas.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    What PanO TAGs really need is actual Profiles, most likely Secotrial specific ones.
    Vanilla is fine picking from the existing choices, no real need to figure out how to make them compete there.
    There's currently only 2 TAGs with a Sectorial Profile, Zapper Squalo in Varuna and AP HMG Tikbalang, both of which I consider quite good in their home Sectorial (one more than the other but that's a different topic).

    Uhlan is the easiest fix of them all, it needs to stop paying for both guns in full, the only reason to ever use the HMG is a minor FTF improvement against badly armored enemy (and even then the FB is more lethal) and access to SF. If it isn't significantly cheaper than the Cutter, it's just significantly overpriced for having worse ARM, Mimetism, HD and 2 guns that end up worse than a MHMG yet somehow cost more.
    Ideally there should be a profile without the HMG (there kind of still needs to be a HMG Profile because the sculpt is the sculpt and that one has both guns).
    PanO TAGs being doomed to a lack of features beyond guns+1 is idiotic. The very least they could do is add more sidearms then (case and point Zapper Squalo, 3 guns no features, turned out well enough). More ARM on a Jotum shouldn't be the only feature, 2 ARM is 1 pip of ARM vs any sort of AP and just not worth the designspace by itself. Heck the Jotum even lost the D.E.P. in N4 (glad to see it gone, having a marginally better ARO in 8-16" Rangeband wasn't that great) in favor of a PZF, which has a very limited benefit on a trooper with a DAM16 EXP ARO.

    Massive buffs to Guided and removal of the HGL with its longer rangebands made the Squalo HGL version significantly less attractive. Not that I want to see more indirect fire in the game, but again it needs a feature beyond just 2 guns, and again, even a 3rd gun works. Zapper on all Squalos for Varuna. NCO in the base Profile for NCA (or whatever, just needs anything).

    AP HMG Tik is awesome but was a mistake. Let's face it the Tik didn't need a buff, AP should have gone to the Seraph, on both Spitfire and HMG. I think that's all it needs to have a place between being CC capable and having the Auxbot.

    I'm all for more creative or synergistic Sectorial only Profiles. Immunity (Critical) Jotum in Sval, Guided ML Squalo, Wildparrot Cutter, not saying any of these are good ideas, there just needs to be any reason.
     
    Golem2God, SpectralOwl and Lesh' like this.
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    Uhlan should be BS Attack (+1B) which wouldn't cost that much to implement because it could then drop the +1B on the FB.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    That doesn't fix the TAG. Only makes it even more expensive and creates more scenarios that make the HMG compete by having a better FTF while still being less deadly. You'd need like 4 reference charts memorized which gun pulls ahead in either FTF or lethality depending on the target's MODs, wounds, and ARM.
     
  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
    If you want it simpler, we could ask CB to give them a Heavy Pistol and nothing more....
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,888
    Likes Received:
    11,261
    Having played them a lot, I think the fact they do not have any short of close range defense, same with the Cutters, is their main disadvantage.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    I guess on second thought you may be right, expecting the WIP12 players to think about their application of firepower might be asking too much after all.
     
  11. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    Not really, you'd take the HMG into heavy MODs or light armour and the FB into everything else. The problem really is the pricing and the weapons' relative overlap; it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that even an SMG would be more useful than the HMG thanks to the different range bands and powered-up Suppressive Fire. Biggest reason to take an Uhlan right now is "you wanted a Squalo in NCA but couldn't afford the squillion elements needed to properly screen one", they're really only good for long-range anti-armour domination right now thanks to their lack of close-in options or special features. Between their price and lack of versatility either a Swiss Guard HMG or a Squalo is better for cost against basically any opponent except someone trying to spam armour, and I've never actually seen anyone doing that because ARM is horribly expensive for what it does.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    And that's the Cutter's limitation for having the being best raw FTF of any single model (discounting FTs) in the game (BS15, Mimetism -6 + Surprise Attack with a MHMG). Quite boring, but the Cutter simply spent all his features on "Gun goes BRRRRR". He also does have HD, which has some pretty neat synergy with the rest of his kit. So the Cutter really just works out fine in N4 (in N3 he looked pretty barebones because of nesting). But why do we have a smaller/worse Cutter with simply less features (no HD) and mostly redundant weaponry in the Uhlan too?


    It's the same principle as Marksmanship LX all over again. Which ended up getting removed from the game.
    Bold strategy to try and make your point by insulting every PanO Player, but you do you, let's see how that works out for you.
     
    LeGweg, Ashtaroth and Lesh' like this.
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    I'm mocking everyone too lazy to do some homework on their guns, and for the record I liked MMLX's rework. The game should explore more high accuracy low burst precision shooting options.
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,888
    Likes Received:
    11,261
    Mocking people just undermines any good points you may make, for the record as CC has shown the lesser the B the more there is need to rely on critical hits or massive negative modifiers.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    > proposes adding +1 B to Uhlan Profle making existing problem even worse
    > blatantly ignorant of actual problem
    > suggests old MMS LX was a good thing
    > multiple hints pointing at severe lack of understanding of very simple core Infinity concepts
    > cumulative line of argumentation epitome: argues that miniscule situational benefits should cost a mediocre 2nd rate TAG 10 or so points, just so you then get the satisfaction of calculating which gun is better ever time you shoot
    > proceeds to mock people after a self induced trainwreck of reasoning

    My sides man. Never change :joy:
     
    Lesh' likes this.
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,888
    Likes Received:
    11,261
    MMS LX was a good thing, for its era, it was a practical solution for that era that had the desired result, I do not think it fits the present game design philosophy were BS over 20 is a rarity that is encountered on few troops that must engage in close ranges.

    Increased firepower needs other solutions in the present era.

    Other than that, please stop attacking each other, thanks.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and LeGweg like this.
  18. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2019
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    304
    What changed in such a way that troops with BS 20 were more common before ?
    I started in late N3, I don't really know about this era.

    MMS LX looks like a good idea to valuate a good active shooter rather than going wild with mimetism, VMS and burst bonuses. I'd like to see it again, variety of skills is one of my favorite infinity features
     
  19. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2021
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    696
    MMS LX was an entire order skill, which needed a weapon with B2 or more to be used. The B of the attack was reduced to 1, in return to have a +6 to BS MOD. And the target would not be able to use neither partial cover mod to BS neither to the ARM attribute (back then partial cover didn't lowered the enemy attack strength, but raised your own ARM attribute). The skill allowed to be stacked with any other MOD the user had.

    I think you shall see that this coupled with Pano's BS 15 shooting at optimal range implied a BS of 24, and thus the minimun roll of 1 was really a 5 and it would crit from 16+. Couple it with mimetism -3/-6 and cover -3, and the actual prospect for the opponent to hit you was really a 'roll a crit or you're dead'.

    Not a good skill for balance, in my own opinion, in the current state of N4. Let it be a relic for older times.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    They didn't put that skill on many units. From what I can remember; Pheasant sniper (you are missed), Lunah, Grunt sniper and Feuerbach-is-totally-a-sniper Teucer. It was fairly situational for all of them, but the last incarnation was at least both good and useful compared to the previous version and compared to the closest current Triangulated Fire.

    That said; it's all about the unit you put them on. The list above are, with exception of the Grunt, fragile and somewhat expensive units without access to (cheap pure) Core bonuses. Getting them into position where they could effectively use this was tricky and sometimes quite order intensive and each shot taken this way was a shot made at the cost of not doing anything else to advance the board state. Unlike shooting through smoke, which none of them could do at the time, you'd typically have to do this costly set up for each target as well.
    I'm all for bringing it back, but sticking this skill on a tough multi-wound unit probably isn't healthy - it really has to go on actual proper snipers to make sense from a game play perspective.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation