Speculative attack problem

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by BrotherSeptimus, Mar 6, 2023.

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  1. BrotherSeptimus

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    It is stated clearly in the rules that all speculative attacks are always Burst 1.

    The rule reads: "The B will always be 1, regardless of the actual B value of the Weapon or any MODs applied to the B"

    Now – my opponent claims that his Kiss (from Bit & Kiss) has pitcher with Speculative Attack trait but also Targetless trait, and that he can choose: if place that Kiss is aiming for is outside his LOF he have to do speculative attack at burst 1.
    But if place that Kiss is aiming for place in his LOF my opponent claims that he can choose to use Targetless trait instead of Speculative Attack and make burst 2 attack :scream:

    I am quite convinced that Targetless is just weapon trait and not form of attack so I think that even if he is aiming inside his LOF, he has to make Speculative Attack action with Targetless trait and it's loked at burst 1.

    Who is right?

    Thanks a million in advance for your guidance guys!
     
    #1 BrotherSeptimus, Mar 6, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2023
  2. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    Targetless is just weapon trait. It is specifically not a skill. Speculative attack is an entire order skill. If declared, you must use the effects of that skill (e.g. burst = 1).

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Speculative_Attack
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Yup, you can still use a Pitcher, Grenades, etc with the standard BS Attack short skill and get burst bonuses from skills and Fireteams, you are not forced to use Speculative Attack. Though remember that burst bonuses from skills, equipment, and weapons do not work in ARO so Kiss only gets the extra burst in its own turn.

    Yes, this means smoke grenades are fantastic defensive weapons in Fireteams!
     
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  4. BrotherSeptimus

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    I am not sure if You are right. Normal BS attack must be aimed at the target (and only valid target is opponent mini).
    Only two traits (that I know of) that allow you to designate as target something else than said opponent mini are Anti-Materiel (allows you to affect structures and pieces of scenery) and Speculative Attack with additional Targetless trait that allows you to choose a location other than the target as the center of the attack.

    Rules of Speculative Attack state that: "This Common Skill allows the user to execute a BS Attack against a target outside LoF or, if he has a suitable weapon, to choose a location other than the target as the center of the attack." (in that case suitable weapon being something with Targetless trait)

    So my reasoning is - to shoot at something that isn't Your opponent mini you have to either use Speculative Attack in combination with Targetless or normal BS Attack with Anti-Materiel trait.
     
  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Unless it is Targetless, in which case you can target any spot on the table.

    Eg. Smoke Grenades - they are thrown targetless, because you either don't see the enemy model you'd like to protect yourself from, or it is waaay out of range for a thrown grenade.

    The difference is whether you can see the spot on the table you want the greande to land at, or not.
     
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  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Moreover... a Speculative Attack must have an enemy declared as (Main) Target but doesn't need to be centered on him.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Speculative_Attack

    Just this.

    What does the Targetless trait add? It simply removes the need of an enemy target. But it is not linked to Speculative.

    Targetless is a trait you can use, even with a standard BS Attack skill.
    A Pitcher can shot a Repeater in LoF (using the Targetless trait) or out of LoF (using the Specutalive Attack skill and the Targetless trait of the weapon)
     
  7. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    These are two different types of rules.
    Speculative Attack let's you use the Speculative Attack action.
    Targetless is a weapon trait that lets you fire without targeting an enemy model.

    You can use the targetless trait within Speculative Attack to fire out of LoS at a point on the table.
    Oryou can use the targetless trait within a normal BS attack to fire at a point on the table within LoS.

    So, targetless is not part of Speculative Attack but a separate and additional trait.
     
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  8. BrotherSeptimus

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    And again – thank You so much for guidance guys. In my mind Speculative Attack was connected with Targetless trait and I wrongly assumed that in order for it to work they both have to go together.

    But since it is possible to use Targetless trait with normal BS attack then my opponent was right and as long he has LOF he can shoot his pitcher with +1B :+1:
     
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