At the moment it is. Hence my idea, 1W+NWI is a softer way to provide more durability, and only some of those would be protected by Shock Immunity. 2W for HI and 3W for TAGs are about right, otherwise those units might end up too durable to withstand their assault.
Of course, but it doesn't mean such dismissal will be justified. There's a lot of Shock flying around, but it's not that easy to apply everywhere, certainly not to an extent to make NWI pointless. Not on regular, non-character units - things like Devas or Odalisques (I know they're LI, but they're closest to what I'm talking about).
I could live without shock ammo. Saves a lot of ink on the paper (every REM, HI, TAG has it) there are very few (older Aleph profiles Devas, Dasyus) units or charactrers (poor Adil) with NWI that have no Imm (shock). If you want some troopers very dead - double tap it.
And so do Devas ;) My point is that these units are still played even without Shock Immunity, and so would the majority of MI after the proposed change.
I think I said it again in another thread, it is a simple solution to make MI more durable and the shock immunity can be a divider on durability, but this will mean the HI must again become only 2W.
I would like to see the Mi with more staying power, but for the NVI to make some sense I would change the SMG to normal and give Elite/High value troops an Multi SMG. Cheap models stay cheap but lose the ap/shock and the big boys with short range weapons gain DA aro's for there points. Both the NVI for Mi and the SMG changes would also increase the value of Multirifles.
I'm of the opinion that more of them should be, with just some left on the lower end of the spectrum, just as some MI - like Yadus or Sombra - are HIs in all but name. In general unit types should have both their pros and cons. For example I'm not a fan of removing a number of restrictions from Remotes and TAGs in N4; I know it streamlines the game some more, but it made sense, especially given that Remotes were extremely point-efficient and able to get Supportware buffs to firepower. Distinction between LI and MI was always more artificial, based mostly on differences in statline. I'd leave SMGs with AP, making them in-game equivalent to real world PDWs using intermediate cartridges. Otherwise they'll be pretty bland as weapons go, not to mention N4 changes to criticals create a demand for AP ammo.
That's actually a discussion we had in my local meta recently. SMGs are perfectly sensible as a short-range, self defense option for troops not really meant to do much shooting, and lowering these troops points cost accordingly - but when they have access to AP and Shock ammo as standard option, it becomes a little too good. Cut the special ammo out on the cheap models, and make things like AP SMG, Shock SMG, or maybe evn DA SMG (the current iteration of SMG would be AP/Shock SMG) a thing. Hand those out to models who really have use for such in their assigned role - specialists in up close & personal combat. MultiSMG - well, why not, although only for those factions who really make use of Multi weaponary on personal level. I mean, you really don't need high-tech solutions for your basic "Chicago Typewriter", that's early 20th century tech (I'd risk saying one could pull it with end-of-19th century tech!). And a MulitiSMG would be anything but cheap. @Stiopa Y'know I'm nitpicky there... IRL PDWs use sub-intermediate ammunition. Intermediate is what you feed an "assault rifle" with. ;)
I like shock being on things like mines, it makes you have to think twice about just walking into them. Definitely not opposed to cutting down on its availability guns-wise (with a corresponding decrease in shock immunity).
As a practical consideration, maybe we need _less_ tactical awareness/nco/ etc to bring the game back down a notch?
You mean, closer to what it was in 2ed? Except without Combat Group bloat? Hmm. But how does it help the "10 vs 15 Orders" issue then?
I personally don´t like SMG´s since release; for a weapon that makes nearly everything cheaper (the so-called SMG-discount) it is way to flexible; no negative MOD till 16``, versatile ammo options against basicly everything with B3 DMG 13 AP or shock means it is a serious threat for units depending on high armor aswell as 1 wound units, and the option to enter suppressive fire with literaly the same impact as the way more expensive MULTI Rifle. The fact, that CB scattered the SMG all over the armies like candies from a pumpkin-headed madman on halloween did not make it any better and had impact on at least 3 other skills and weapons: every weapon with shock as a "special ammo" was significantly worth less due to having amazingly cheap SMG´s all over the place, and skills like dogged and NWI did lose a huge amount of value due to the same point. Before the SMG´s release shock was quit limited to MULTI/Viral-weapons, which were expensive, Snipers, Mines and CC. A pretty limited range of weapons, and that made (imho) NWI/dogged more of a second wound than what it is now and a unit did not need shock immunity as a default to make the price of NWI worth it. Maybe it´s just the whailing of an old man, but back in my days NWI meant something as a skill, making a unit like Kusanagi or Willi Wallace significantly more durable. Compared to now, fielding this units screams "please shoot at me with your discounted TO/FO" Without shock immunity (which also popped up in N3 like phone shops in the 90´s) NWI/dogged is not realy worth the points. Spoiler: additional thought... I am not sure if I remember correctly, but for a short amount of time after the SMG´s release there was no access to shock ammo, only AP.... but I´m not sure about that. As mentioned earlier, Orders are (imho) the most important and precious resource of the game. Most players (me included) tend to maximise the Number of green, red, yellow and blue tokens in every list they write. No matter how the ITS change or the units have access to additional orders, that´s what will happen. To change that or to motivate players to go a different way is hard to accomplish without making the option either pointless or overpowered. I loved the Limited Insertion option from a couple seasons ago when a single combat group list was prevented from the Strategic CT options to steal regular orders or limit the first turn player to one CT. Hopefully this comes back some day.... At the moment, there is no drawback with a warcor as a single unit in the second Combat group, and counterintelligence is also not that uncommon anymore. Imho i would increase the amount of Units with Tactical Awerness, with 2 major points to make: first: I would increase the cost. The is not a single reason on this world why i should not take the TA HMG Zuyong instead to the very same unit without TA for 3 Points less. Orders are valuable. Make it so. A 3 point regular order on warcor is fine. a semi-regular order on a zuyong speaks differently. secondly: I would give TA to units which represents the basic loadout of a unit to make them more attractive and the choice more impactful. Or, in case of combining the two points: TA has to have a different cost based on the unit it is granted: A order for a combi rifle zuying (for example) has to be cheaper than on a HMG. TA on a line infanterie unit which dies when looked at with a stern gaze is not worth the same amount as on a TAG with camo-option. I personally would tend between 3 points in case of basic units up to 6 or 7 points when given to a HI with HMG. Yes, I know: Flashpuls-bots cost 7 points. Exactly. But they also die faster and can be taken additionally.
Because 15 vs 20 is even worse? Now the first player can get more done and the second player loses more? I fiday Kornak and I still have a significant amount of orders left, and my opponent loses _3_.
While true on its own, it is also a lousy argument in the case we have here, you know. Because by logical extension, it would mean the only solution would be to put a hard Limited Insertion limit on everyone. "You are limited to single combat group, deal with it, fullstop". Kind of what C1 seems to have. That would, of course, kind of solve the issue. However, is it the kind of solution we seek? I fail to see how this is better - as this depends purely on luck in your Initiative roll: if you get lucky, yo get to move first. Not to mention we has the first player problem (aka alpha striking) in Infinity for a long time. I remeber our early games in N2, where for a time winning Initiative essentially equalled to winning the game. It took us time to learn the skill of deploying.
