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Shooting while in the Suppressive Fire State

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Methuselah, Dec 13, 2022.

  1. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    If I have a model who is using an HMG in the Suppressive Fire State and an enemy model moves into LoF outside of 24" am I allowed to shoot the HMG using the normal weapon profile?

    Picture1.png

    Suppressive Fire State has the effect: While in Suppressive Fire State, the SF Mode profile replaces the selected weapon's usual BS Weapon profile. The SF Mode profile is the one that will be used while in Suppressive Fire State. [added emphasis]

    Suppressive Fire State has the cancelation clause: The Trooper declares any ARO other than a BS Attack using the SF Mode profile.

    I think most people play that you can shoot the HMG with any profile you want. This is often done if a model walks into LoF outside of 24" so that you can still get a FTF. However, the word "replaces" in the effects makes me think that you do not have any other profile options while in the suppressive fire state and you cannot break suppressive fire when declaring a BS attack with the same weapon due to the cancelation clause. This would mean you're pretty much locked into the SF shooting mode if you want to shoot.
     
  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    yeah i see what you mean.

    PS - you could shoot with a different weapon, like a Pistol. But it does seem like your main weapon profile did get replaced entirely with the SF Mode one.
    PPS - except for MULTI weapons. They have a profile which does not have the Supp Fire trait and cannot be selected for Supp Fire. Only the profile with the Supp Fire mode can be chosen and that is the "usual BS Weapon profile." that is being replaced with SF Mode.
     
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  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I see were you come from, but as far as I know, how people play it (choose as an ARO if SF will be used or not used and cancelled) is how it is supposed to be.
     
  4. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but its not clear in the rules' text. This would be an easy fix by changing a few words in the Suppressive Fire State effect: While in Suppressive Fire State, the SF Mode profile is added to the selected weapon's usual BS Weapon profile(s). The SF Mode profile may only be used while in Suppressive Fire State.
     
  5. Qwerinaga

    Qwerinaga Active Member

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    Sorry but it look crystal clear:
    The Suppressive Fire state is automatically cancelled if the Trooper declares any ARO other than a BS Attack using the SF Mode profile.
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
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  7. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    the unclear part is this : Can you, while in HMG Supp Fire, declare a BS Attack with an HRL which you don't have ? What makes you think you can declare a BS Attack with a HMG using its usual profile, considering that you lost that usual profile as it was replaced as per the rules ?

    We usually play that you can cancel Supp Fire before saying what weapon & profile you use, which allows you to recover the usual profile, and then you declare your ARO using the usual profile. But the rule doesn't say you can automatically drop the state prior to declaring which of your existing or non-existing profile you'll take.
     
  8. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    This is what I'm getting at. I think breaking the SP state freely is how its commonly played (and how I've always played it), but I don't think it's clear that you have access to the original profiles for weapon you declared SP with. You could still declare a BS attack with any of your other weapons (e.g. pistol) to break SP however.
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    In active state, if you declare an order for anything, it removes the state.
    In ARO, if you declare anything that's not using the SF Mode, it removes the state. BS attack (using another weapon or the same weapon with your normal range), dodge, failed guts, etc.

    Cancellation
    The Suppressive Fire state is automatically cancelled in any of these cases:

    • The Trooper declares an Order.
    • The Trooper declares any ARO other than a BS Attack using the SF Mode profile.
    • The Trooper uses a weapon that cannot be used for Suppressive Fire.
    • The Trooper fails a Guts Roll.
    • The Trooper enters Engaged, Isolated or Retreat! State, any Null or Immobilized State, or any other State which specifies that it cancels Suppressive Fire.
    • The Trooper's army enters a Loss of Lieutenant situation.
    • The Trooper joins any kind of Infinity Fireteam.
     
  10. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    So, the main point here is: Do you have access to the 'normal' profiles after you've declared SP for a given weapon. The wording in SP say's that it replaces the selected weapon's usual BS Weapon profile. If you don't have access to the usual weapon profile(s) because they've been replaced, you can not declare a BS attack using the same weapon with your normal range. Get what I'm getting at?


    I don't think this is actually an issue because no one plays that you loose access to previous weapon profiles. A new player asked about this and I couldn't figure out why the rule for replaces doesn't actually replace the old profiles besides that's just how the community plays it. I would like it if CB updated the wording, but there's bigger fish to fry.
     
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  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Suppressive Fire Mode is just a Firing Mode. Like Burst / Antimateriel for MULTIs.

    The part about "replacing" the weapon profile, is because the other Modes DO NOT normally change ranges.
    Immagine that a MULTI Rifle should be listed as
    Burst Mode
    Antimateriel Mode
    Suppressive Fire Mode

    But if you list it for every weapon you need a book just for the Weapon Chart!
     
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  12. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it would be a pain to list the suppressive fire state for each weapon. I just don't think the word replaces should be used in the SP rules because replaces commonly means to substitute.
     
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  13. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    One Question:
    Did anyone EVER play it the way @Methuselah did point it out? Like standing on the opposite of the table and telling the other player "nahaaa, you are not allowed to shoot at me with your HMG on 26 inches, cause you replaced the HMG-profile with the SF profile and therefore the unit is locked into the 24´´ max range." and did not get slapped in the face for this sh*theadness? That´s "Your hacker can just hack and reset" level of playing: there is a way to read it that way and if you are more interested into winning than having a fun game, than you start abusing stuff like that, because THE RULES SAY SO. What did happen to the great quote
     
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  14. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    Did you read this thread? The way I pointed out was:


    Infinity is a complicated game. The rules forum is where you're supposed to come to ask questions on how rule interactions work. If you're not interested in playing the game how CB intends it to be played, then there isn't much of a reason to come here. Just feel free to play it however you like.
     
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  15. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Methuselah is correct in that the wording is poor. Unfortunately Infinity is full of poorly worded rules and terms that are not defined within the language of the game.

    I am sure they understand the intent, but unfortunately Rules as Written would mean you do not have a regular profile.
     
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