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Return Glorious Biomines!

Discussion in 'Rules suggestions' started by WiT?, Dec 13, 2022.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    When I first started this game in N2, it was a period of time where Pretas could lay mines. Just like, standard shock mines. It was pretty wild and it was the game mechanic that led to me playing this game for over ten years.

    But before that, in the dark times, supposedly they could lay Biomines. Mines that would detonate on anything that was not a Hungry or an Oznat, and so could cause friendly fire. But supposedly those got canned because they were too complicated rules-wise.

    Nowadays, the awesomeness of Preta mines is gone. But I was thinking... could they make a comeback? Release a Preta profile, perhaps for Morats only (given the new lore of removing the eggs because the EI is a wuss), that swaps its chain rifle for Biomines. If the EI wants to be generous there could even be a Minelayer one...

    The biomines would work like this;

    Biomines
    Deployable, Disposable (1), Direct Template (Circular)
    • Biomines have a 360 degree LoF arc.
    • Biomines are a game token with a Silhouette of 1.
    • As a direct template weapon, when a Biomine is triggered, a Circular template must be placed directly centered on the Biomine and the damage and ammunition specified in the weapons chart must be applied.
    • Biomines never trigger if the Circular Template would affect a Hungries or Oznat model from either side.
    • Once on the game table, Biomines must trigger when any non-Hungries or Oznat Model or Marker from either side declares or executes a Skill or ARO inside their Trigger Area, checking it at that moment by placing the Circular template. If it is determined that the Model or Marker is not within the Trigger Area, the Mine will not detonate.
    • Once a Biomine triggers, it is removed from play.
    • A Biomine is a template weapon and a deployable weapon, so imposes a -3 PH mod to any attempt to dodge its effects
    • The Trigger area of the Biomine ii the area within the radius of the Circular, extended out from the edge of the base of the Mine.
    • The Trigger Area excludes any areas in Total Cover from the Blast Focus of the Circular Template
    • A Biomine cannot be placed if there is an enemy Camouflage Marker inside its Trigger Area. This restriction does not apply if there is a valid, non-camouflaged enemy inside the Trigger Area, or if an Intuitive Attack was declared.
    Weapon Chart Entry:
    BIOMINES - DAM 13, B1, SHOCK, ARM, Intuitive Attack, Disposable 1, Direct Template (Circular), Deployable

    TLDR version - Uncamouflaged, Silhouette 1 Mines that explode circular rather than teardrop (removes arguments about 'aiming' it), that can detonate on allies, but who cannot detonate on Hungries or Oznats.
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Fuck it. I'm here for this.
     
  3. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    So. Write yet another exception into the rules?
    Another piece of equipment that is unique to one unit?

    I'd pass.
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    I dislike the rules exceptions stuff.

    I like the idea of a circular template mine.
     
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  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    N1/N2 mines had that as an option, IIRC.
    Definitely the N1/N2 E/Maulers (that became the modern EM Mines) had it. Game-wise, it didn't work in my experience. I guess it is why the CB made the change to small teardrop for these.
     
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  6. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    I´d love to read the discussions about this:
    "So, the Biomine does not get triggered by oznat and hungries? Let´s assume my Teuton is VERY HUNGRY..."

    That I would realy be a fan of.

    edit:

    yep. the problem is: Round circular is small. I mean: Very small. The range is quite mediocre and mostly easy to either destroy or walk around.
     
  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Which is why, IMO, it didn't work. And therefore was changed to Small Teardrop.

    In short:
    • We've been there already.
    • Found it ain't workin'.
    • Dunno why the people want to repeat the experience.
     
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  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    It didn't work because you had the option to do both.
    Who whoud bother using the circular template when you can hit farther and harder (in term of number of troops involved) with the teardrop template?

    If some sort of mine could use ONLY the circular template, it would be another world...
     
  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    This would mean that it'd be stuck in one, impractical mode, and players would complain about another piece of useless equipment.

    We want to make Hungries more interesting? I'd simply give both kinds BS Attack (Viral), and allow it to work with Gakis' Explode.
     
  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Do we really need? And I'm a frequent user...
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    When I think of biomines I just think of viral mines or symbiobombs. I wouldn't want yet another way of placing mines. But more ammo types would be nice.

    Right now we have Mines with: AP, Shock, Viral, Mono, E/M. Of those I can only think of one that has Mono and only a few that have viral. There's many other ammunitions that could be used. PARA, Stun, T2, Breaker.

    Of the perimeter weapons there's Shock, PARA, E/M.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    No, we don't, and I use them as well :)

    Continuous Damage
     
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  13. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    E/Maulers (nowadays E/M mines) were exactly that: only circular template. Did. Not. Work.
    Also, E/Marat worked that way too (original Human Sphere book changed it to large teardrop). If you want some crazy shenanigans - EM worked through Total Cover, too (although granting Cover mod for BTS)...

    There were many other bits and pieces CB forfeited along the way. And while I have a fond memory of a Moderator fireteam getting hit by a Booty-gained EM grenade from a Yuan Yuan, and failing their BTS tests so all their Combirifles and their Spitfire got damaged (because some weapons were vulnerable to EM - and others weren't), I agree with the CB's decision to streamline the game and get rid of that rule.
     
  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    What's the exception you two take issue with? The friendly fire bit?

    Regarding the Unique Equipment element I would understand that except that there is no reason that a piece of equipment, if it added to the game experience, could not be proliferated onto other profiles.
     
  15. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    The only weapon that affects friendly models... to make it worse, save for a very specific type. So adds one more thing to keep track during the game.
    At the same time, certain enemy models are unaffected by it.

    Also, circular template mines - that would be the only type of mines to use it. Plus, it was tested before, and found to be not working.
     
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  16. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Would you be opposed to a more generic version?

    For example, Booby Traps as essentially circular mines that trigger on friend and foe, and Hungries having the Elusive skill which allows their short movement actions to ignore deployable equipment? Both of which could be disseminated to other units throughout the game.

    Regarding circular mines not working, I disagree. When mines could do both the circle was very rarely taken, but as a mechanism for a different form of deployable equipment I don't see the issue.
     
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  17. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Then these Booby Traps would activate on the model that laid them. Which is counterproductive: except for Mine Dispenser and Drop Bears (well, and mines deployed via the Minelayer skill), all other forms of Mines need to be placed in base-to-base with the model. So, you deploy it, and the moment you try to move away, it blows in your face. That, in my eyes, defeats the purpose: not only you don't have a said Booby Trap deployed any longer, but you are in a realistic risk of taking a Wound from it.

    Elusive skill - ah. You mean, you want to have a skill in game that would make all the Deployable Equipment invalid? I don't think it is a good idea. No exisitng skill or equipment should be invalidated.

    We'd have to agree to disagree on that.
    Because I was around when E/Maulers did exactly that, as mentioned above. And it did not work.

    Let's separate it from the biomines discussion for a moment: to have a Circular Template mine work, you need to have a model lay it in a narrow passage. After all, the template is 12cm / 4.75" in diameter. Making it way easier to navigate around it (or discover & shoot to pieces), compared to the 21cm / 8,25" are of effect of a Small Teardrop template (which is actually even a bit bigger, given it is measured from the base's edge).

    Also, if you want a circular area of effect mine, you'd have to deal with a situation where your model has placed it, and it has an enemy model acring (or AROing) in the Area of Effect before your model had a chance to get out of the AoE. Would the mine explode, affecting both models (which is something Infintiy mechanics was, since the beginning, against), or not explode at all?
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    While I agree with the sentiment, there's quite a lot of invalidation in the game already. MSV invalidates Mimetism, MI with all the durability of a HI but with none of the drawbacks invalidate hacking defence, and Sixth Sense invalidates Surprise Attack, Smoke, and careful maneuvering and positioning. But I agree that skill bypassing mines would be bad for the game, making using mines much less useful, as it'd probably land in units we would like to use mines against most.

    Please ignore the above, though, I certainly would like Shasvastii to get quite a big share of Elusive :P

    Wouldn't explode at all, I believe.
     
  19. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Can't you move 4" and place the mine with the second skill? Or would that still detonate it? If so, thats what threads like this are for - to workshop ideas!

    If I was the head rules writer for Infinity, this type of skill would not exist. But this is a game where skills that delete other skills and otherwise do nothing are a thing. No sense avoiding this design space once its out of the bottle.

    We'd have to agree to disagree on that.
    Because I was around when E/Maulers did exactly that, as mentioned above. And it did not work.

    Let's separate it from the biomines discussion for a moment: to have a Circular Template mine work, you need to have a model lay it in a narrow passage. After all, the template is 12cm / 4.75" in diameter. Making it way easier to navigate around it (or discover & shoot to pieces), compared to the 21cm / 8,25" are of effect of a Small Teardrop template (which is actually even a bit bigger, given it is measured from the base's edge).

    I consider these elements of ineffectiveness a feature rather than a bug. If booby traps were just mines they would not be interesting. With their reduced area of effect and friendly fire they feel different, the same way a koala or repeater feel different. A piece of deployable equipment doesn't need to be effective at doing damage to be a useful deterrent, and sometimes just soaking a short skill could be worthwhile.

    I'm not seeing the issue. If in this situation it was a mine belonging to a third party, it would simply detonate and hit both units. What are you referring to about infinity mechanics and issues here

    I disagree on a few counts, though I agree fully with the rest.

    • At the moment, my feeling is that BS based ARO is pretty low value and only area effects like mines, chain chaff, koalas and repeaters are really worth while defense. Elusive would push players who rely a lot on the latter to take more of the former.
    • Elusive allows a different type of threat (Elusive 1W as opposed to simply 2+W) threats to penetrate minefields. This could potentially allow a number of units who are shut down by minefield type defenses to regain lost value. I think all else being equal, its better to have more counters than less to a particular strategy.
    • Elusive is more interesting than other bypass skills because given it only protects you on basic movement skills, you can still trigger mines if you force the opponent to perform actions. A mine on a corner near an ARO firelane is still pretty effective.
    • Where a skill ends up should not really be used as an argument against its existence, as putting particular skills on particular profiles as-is can already just mess up the unit and the game. We should focus more on if the skill in question adds value or not.
    (Sorry the post looks a bit weird, it insists on putting weird "quote" tags in strange places and I can't get rid of them)
     
  20. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    No, it wouldn't detonate it. It wouldn't detonate it if you moved 4" in the first place either. You're right about that.

    However, this forces you to get to the place where you want the mine placed in one Order, and then lay the mine and move away from it in the next Order.
    If you try doing it in a single Order (move to the minelaying point, lay a mine) you'll end with an armed mine at your feet waiting to blow if you as much as twitch.

    Perimeter weapons have their practical use - they trade their template effect for an ability to reach behind Total Cover, compared to Mines.
    Repeaters also reach beyond Total Cover. Though they are of little effect againsnt non-hackable targets.... and you need to have an adequate Hacker somewhere on table.

    What do the "booby traps" bring in to the table that's interesting to the player?
    • They are smaller in terms of area-of-effect, compared to mines.
    • They can affect your own model, therefore being more difficult to deploy effectively. And/ or safely.
    Sorry, if I had an option of bringing a model with Boobly Traps, and one with Mines for the same job, I'd choose the Mines.


    Except you don't have a third party in a game of Infinity, save perhaps for scenario elemnts (there were sentry turrets in some old scenarios). The game wasn't designed to work as a three-way.



    No, really, I'm tired of explaining to you why removing the old Infinity rule of "you can't attack your own models", or Circular Tempalte Mines is a bad idea.

    Sorry. I'll be seeing myself out of this topic.
     
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