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Faq 1.3 how to vault during a jump?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    If you deploy your cheerleader in the open of your DZ, the fault is not in the rules...
    If they are close to any obstacle high as S2 or more, you just need to be prone to be not visible from almost anywhere.
     
    Jumara likes this.
  2. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Look, this is one of those times (yet again) when CB tries to write good rules but fails.

    CB should have (and still can) written in the faq: "while jumping or climbing, the trooper can't trigger vault except in the case of parapets". This simple sentence would fix everything for everyone. Now everyone has to pretend that this sentence exists. Luckily Infinity players are fond of playing with rules that don't exist.
     
  3. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing has changed except for SJ and C+. And even those changes haven’t added any real change except a few extra inches.

    A TAG or any other unit have always been able to Vault on top to get better LoF.

    You’re way behind the curve.
     
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  4. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    It´s not a matter of "beeing ok with it", it is how it is ruled. With pictures.
     
  5. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @bladerunner_35 Those extra inches are obviously very important! Also superjumpers don't need to support their base 100% for doublevaults which some people think is necessary for normal vaults.
     
  6. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    That’s what she said!
    -Michel Scott
     
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  7. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Until the next geometric challenge comes up. At some point players will need to realize judgement calls are inevitable.
     
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  8. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    speaking of geometry, let's find out how big of a corner you can vault.

    simple case A : A model on flat ground, wants to move, left to right, over an obstacle. Assuming a high enough MOV, there is no problem vaulting this during a Move, or vaulting it during a horizontal Jump.
    PS - this represent a bit more than 7.3" MOV if done as a Move Skill (and same if done as a Jump skill).
    upload_2022-11-25_9-10-38.png
    Case B: if at the end of the obstacle, the model lands on a ramp. You can still perform the vault during a Move order. You can still perform the vault during a Jump order. Does being tilted after the obstacle (because of stair case "ramp", other ramps, etc) reduce the maximum height allowed on the obstacle ? I mean, the obstacle is still 65mm high; and his Sil is still 67mm high (as per the basic rule, silhouette section, the height is set to 67mm not to "67sin(tilt angle)"); and 65 is still less than 67.
    PS - this is still slightly over 7.3" MOV
    upload_2022-11-25_9-12-14.png

    Case C: with case B showing the path of a Jump then Case C, which is rotational equivalent/symmetric to the previous one, shows a valid Jump path over a parapet-less building and vaulting an arbitrary obstacle (where the extended Jump path brought the model from an initial resting position to this light blue position; all this is assuming a model with sufficient MOV to complete the declared Jump.)
    PS - This is now 7.3" MOV + whatever inches it took to reach the light blue position.
    upload_2022-11-25_9-19-47.png
     
    #48 Robock, Nov 25, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Jesus wept, it’s simple guys. Vault over parapets, but do not cut through any part of a building’s main mass, including the corners.
     
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  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Simple, elegant, and easily within the grasp of anyone except TFG, who thus easily identities themselves.
     
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    It is simple. But it is not actually written. And without anything else to counter Mahtamori claim in post #3 (as well as his arguments in discord) that you can vault an arbitrarily decided portion of the building main mass; I may as well join him and determine how much of the building's mass his green line can vault.
    I mean, my strongest argument was that in the picture, their green line doesn't cut the building mass but only cut the parapet. Showing clear intent that we are not meant to vault part of the building itself. But the picture don't actually need to show the most optimal play allowed by the rules. Maybe he's right, maybe you could make a diagonal Jump with the green arrow going straight thru the building (but not too much inside of it).
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am surprised, though I should not be, when these questions arise, please do enjoy your newfound mobility without trying to break the system...

    The illustration @Tristan228 shows is how it is meant to be done and I would argue that the purple line, if properly applied, as per the example is the same result as the green line without the need to try and abuse the system.

    Personally I would argue that what can and cannot be vaulted should be considered at the ground level of were the movement starts or traversably changes level, so you cannot vault over the wall mid air as soon as your models silhouette passes the walls height during a jump because the model is not supported at the level before the wall (it is mid air after all) and the ground behind the wall does not exist (the point of vaulting would be inside the solid wall of the building).
     
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  13. Jumara

    Jumara Well-Known Member

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    I would not allow to vault that triangle in the first place. as you can clearly move up and down. In my oppinion vaulting is for fences, small boxes (smaller then your S), other rubble and scatter terrain that would slow down the gameplay if you had to jump over it or move around it otherwise.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So you are essentially saying that if you are jumping OVER a building, you aren't allowed to vault the parapets, only if you jump up ONTO it? (Or down it, which hasn't really changed with this faq)

    Do you know how the silhouette moves - the one your opponent can shoot at? Does it follow the line that you measure with the "front toe" so to speak or does it move in the old arc (i.e. the only change is how you measure, not how you move, the mini)?
     
  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think the first part is probably a correct summary.

    The second is a good question, I am assuming that, regardless of how the distance is measured (staring from the base of the silhouette or the top of the silhouette) , the base of the silhouette follows the entire movement path, including gaining the height gain the vaulting will create.
     
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  16. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Case A is a lot like the rulebook example : A triangle that is not as high as your model, with side length big enough to support your base, yet steep enough (rulebook is 60°, mine is 45°) to make your model fall on its side. But well. that I guess would be pre-game table talk; how steep are players wanting to allow a ramp before it is considered a wall ? It very well could be that 45° is agreed between you and me that I can simply move over (and if staying on it, will just note/remember the model correct position). Then I agree with you a vault would probably not be able to be applied as it is not an obstacle anymore as I can simply walk on it.
     
  17. Jumara

    Jumara Well-Known Member

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    @Robock Fair to say, but 60° and 45° degree is a hugh disparity if you are only looking between 90° (real Walls) and ca 30° (real ramps)
     
  18. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I look forward to someone trying to magically phase through a building at a tourney, and the resulting laughter and gentle mockery from the TO and other players.

    Where this discussion highlights the limits of vaulting, it’s useful.

    Where it attempts to justify extensions of the vaulting rules to take advantage of (or even invent from whole cloth) rules wording or examples it is -not- useful, and is an annoyance to fellow players used to seize small advantages at high cost of goodwill.

    Where grinding at a fairly simple example to find situations counter to the general simple rules breaks the simulation and makes the minutia into a burdensome affair, it is unwelcome. N4 was streamlined for a reason. Stuff like this makes the game uninviting to new players. This right here is why people give up learning the game and play GW crap instead.

    EDIT: Some of you may be discussing in good faith here. The post above is about those who are not, and I feel that the whole discussion is in the spirit of “not.”
     
    #58 Savnock, Nov 29, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Defining parapets as discrete obstacles that happen to be permanently affixed to the surface of the building does kinda solve this, dunnit? Treat them like you’d treat some lil crates stacked along the edge of a rooftop.

    Height of the obstacle is measured from rooftop surface to top of parapet, and the rulebook diagram about not being able to vault a barrier on the edge of a raised surface applies to Move, but is bypassed by jumping and climbing; it even says so right by that diagram. Any particularly janky buildings may require some pregame discussion — does a billboard next to a building but with a narrow gap between block jumping if you can’t clear the whole billboard? Etc.
     
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