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B3 AROs from linked REMs thanks to the new FAQ... not a great idea?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Savnock, Nov 24, 2022.

  1. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    From FAQ 1.3, page 8:

    "Can a Fireteam's Burst Support Bonus be
    combined with other Burst MODs and bonuses?
    For example with Enhanced Reaction in ARO?
    Yes. For example a Remote can add the Burst
    Support Bonus to its Burst 2 ARO from Enhanced
    Reaction, giving it Burst 3 in ARO."


    Anyone else think this is a poor choice for balance?

    It contradicts the way fireteam ARO bonuses in specific have always worked.

    And it makes Pi-Well even -more- of a little superoptimized murderer than he already is. B3 AROs with Marksmanship and Sixth Sense on a unit with Mimetism-6, all for 0 extra orders or points... seems a bit much.

    Outside ITS14, still seems a bit far IMO.

    As a Nomad player I laugh with glee at this though.

    Other opinions, anyone?
     
  2. Zsimbi

    Zsimbi Well-Known Member

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    I dont think its too OP, you still have to spend the order on the EVO bot to activate it. Also if you dont give marksmanship to your REM you cannot shoot back with most of them on opponents that confer -12.

    Exception to this is the pure core linked dakini who is the prime candidate to this new buff.

    Besides dakinis good ones could be the Buleteer in PanO sectorials where it can go into links, to provide a longer range B3 instead of the classic “put it in supress” mindset that would break the link, and the couple of sectorials where the missle bot can go into the core.
     
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  3. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    B3 missilebots in coreteam are way worse. It increases the catastrophic chance of failure for all non-TAG attackers, because in inifinity you kill flies with missile launchers.

    Noctifier MLs are still cheaper (in overall pts cost) and get better ARO traps.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I've played with it a while. It's not THAT impactful, tbh. Primarily this is a psychological tool.

    There's a few stand-outs; Son-Bae in IA, Tsyklon in the Jurisdictional sects, and Clippers in Druze to name three that can produce good numbers (not as good as the apex snipers, but still quite good). What I mean with "good numbers" is that it produces on average 5 percentiles better chances (which is roughly 15% performance increase) over Marksmanship for some situations - however, you can not use Enhanced Reaction in the active turn and there are situations in the reactive turn where Assisted Fire is still going to be better.
     
  5. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    This. A hundred percent this. A B3 mimetism -3 MSR Dakini with the possibility of a straight BS13 + Corebonus seems like the Endboss in terms of defensive Fire teams.

    BUT

    Is it worth to drop marksman for another burst?
    Is it worth running 2 EVO´s to keep Marksmann active on another unit?
    And it needs some time and points for this setup. At first glance i was quite flabbergasted by the options, but then.... How did i get rid of Mimetism-snipers before the FAQ, and does that realy change, now that it becomes even harder?
    The thing i am just realy sad about is, that, especially for OSS, that feels like another nail in the coffin of Yadu-cores.

    I defenetly gonna try that, but I dont think that hugely change how someone handles Linked ARO-Pieces: force them into huge negative MODs, or smoke and ignore them, or Chainrifle the face.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Haris Orc HMG in cover vs remotes in Cover. Orc is the active shooter on the left, the buffed remote is the second/reactive number.
    Enhanced Reaction pure Core Dakini: 31% vs 40%
    Assisted Fire pure Core Dakini: 30% vs 41%
    Enhanced Reaction impure Core Son-Bae 53% vs 25%
    Assisted Fire impure Core Son-Bae 47% vs 33%

    These trends typically do not typically change depending on shooter's skills, except for if they have Impetuous.
    It's also interesting to note how the probability of dealing two wounds do not massively increase with more burst, it's still similarly linear with the first wound's probabilities.

    Rules of thumb:
    Saturation or don't have a fireteam? Enhanced Reaction
    Target has Impetuous or otherwise no cover? Enhanced Reaction
    None of the above but target has cover? Assisted Fire
    You want to use REM in active as well? Assisted Fire
    Got a DTW and not afraid to use it? Enhanced Reaction
    Opponent hasn't done the math and you don't want them to attack? Definitely Enhanced Reaction!
     
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  7. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    I think that you need to know how meta works at the moment to validate what are good % and what aren't.

    The usual attacker isn't a HI with HMG, but economy TAG with ARM6 and HMG(dmg+1). The trouble AROing this monster with non-template weapon is that it's very hard to penetrate that ARM6+3 reliably. The TAG can on the other hand continue throwing orders at ARO trooper until it fails. ARO trooper needs to cause at least 1-2 wounds for your opponent to stop the TAG from attacking. The jackpot is ofc oneshotting the TAG with crit.

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Pure Fullcore Dakini MULTI sniper with Enchanced reaction. Both are in partial cover.
    Active Player
    29.02% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    37.65% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    33.33% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    11.04% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    2.49% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Pure Fullcore MULTI sniper with Assisted Fire. Both are in partial cover.
    Active Player
    28.28% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    38.74% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    32.98% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    9.19% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    1.46% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    --> Enhanced reaction is slightly better, but those aren't good odds for Dakini. The odds of TAG emerging victorious (or at least not-dead) after few orders is very high.

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Pure Fullcore Unidron ML with Enchanced reaction. Both are in partial cover.
    Active Player
    40.96% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    26.39% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    32.65% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    20.49% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    9.40% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Pure Fullcore Unidron ML with Assisted Fire. Both are in partial cover.
    Active Player
    37.11% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    16.34% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Dead)
    Failures
    23.58% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    39.31% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    22.87% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    8.97% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    --> Assisted Fire is slightly better. There is about 10% chance for each order that TAG player effectively loses the game. Something for the TAG player to think about.

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Noctifer ML. Noctifer has partial cover.
    Active Player
    37.26% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    21.79% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    40.96% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    26.52% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    8.38% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    --> Even better if you manage lure TAG to double ARO situation. Man I love Noctifiers...

    ARM6 TAG (+1DMG HMG) vs Pure Fullcore Suryat HRL. Both are in partial cover.
    Active Player
    34.63% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    12.01% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    44.72% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    20.65% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (2 W)
    9.38% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    4.20% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    --> TAG player probably takes these odds if Suryat has an oppressing LoF to the mission area and no orders are wasted in moving to engage the Suryat.
     
    #7 Tanan, Nov 24, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Good context, thanks for the perspective guys.

    It does motivate me to finish my paintjob on Pi-Well ASAP. I’ll be using him as a crutch a lot this season, it seems.

    Guess I should finally stop proxying Tsyklons and pick some up as well. That will be more for the fun of playing around with this though. Even at B3 in ARO, a Tsyklon can’t match the excellence of a Riot Grrl missile launcher in a Moderator link for durable ARO unit.
     
  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    not sure. Fireteam always forbid stacking with other MODs and now it explicitly says it stacks with other MODs including from hacking program. So saying that the new way contradict the old ways is a very week argument I think.

    That said, I think they went the wrong direction as far as ITS 14 is concerned. Yes, you cannot stack Assisted Fire with Enhanced Reaction; but nothing prevent stacking Enhanced Reaction with a unit's natively existing Marksmanship skill (or a Marksmanship skill granted by Tachimotos)

    So now, if I pay for an EVO Bot, and if I spend an Order to put up ER Supportware, my haris-linked Rafiq has B3 while ignoring your Cover. Ouch. (But less ouch than Pi-Well)
     
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  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Dakini's will great. Tsyclon will be amazing. But I'm lookin forward to my Unidron plasma sniper!
     
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  11. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    All the scary linkable REM has one thing in common: You need a repeater near them and you have to spend a order from the EVO. The last one you'll miss for other things (ass. Fire).

    Exeptions: Tsyclon (Feuerbach count as scary) and mime 6 REM (normally have in build repeaters).

    No turn one use.

    I for myself will not use it very much. Ass fire is more important on Dakini HMG and you allwasy have to keep an eye on repeater range. Maybe if the core is down to 4 or 3 and the sniper is still online. Other uses are situational.

    Nice tool for linked ARO and saturation.
     
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  12. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Yup.

    I could have sworn there was the option of Command Token firing up an EVO in the strategic Command Token phase, but apparently it is gone with the wind as of N3 to N4 transition...
     
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  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I thought so too. Oh well. Probably for the best. Even so, I didn't think this was a game changer. But need to play it and really see.
     
  14. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I’ll give a try to both the possibly-broken implementation of this (Pi-Well) and the merely-optimized (Tsyklon) next weekend.
     
  15. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    I think this is more of a clarification than a gamechanger. "Hey guys, it´s possible,but if u dont shhot at units using red orders it´s mostly not worth"
    Funny though that quite a handfull of people i spoke to about this in the past found it broken to have a "burst 3 linked REM", and the moment someone does the maths, it´s just.... situational better. (REM already has Marksman, your target is without cover,....)
     
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  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Pretty sure B3 is better than B2. Would you like to see the math on that? :D

    What most of us are puzzled about is the inconsistent application/extension of the Fireteam rules interacting with anything else. It had previously been ruled that the B bonus was max 1, and B2 ARO is a sensible way to avoid having typical defensive troops be as strong as typical offensive troops, assuming both were packing similar weaponry.

    The same sort of rule was applied to the Enhanced Reaction supportware, a cap at B2.

    Bypassing not just one but two measures which had hard-capped ARO at B2 at the same time feels pretty counterintuitive, and adds the sort of confusing complexity thatN4 was specifically designed to eliminate (and which killed a lot of fun stuff that was in N3).

    Getting that B3 does cost an order, which increases the “cost” outside points/SWC. But it can also be extended to either troops with Marksmanship or troops with nasty weaponry like Feuerbach, Missile Launcher, etc. which are not even B3 in the active turn.

    Overall this benefit does not feel “situational.” If a player has a linked REM and the available order to add Supportware, seizing this advantage becomes a no-brainer.

    The only thing “situational” about it is whether you can also manage to pack Marksmanship and/or a really good weapon onto your linked REM. That just raises the benefit even higher: but B3 is already better than B2 ;)
     
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  17. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Possibly broken? Do you realize that Pi-Well only has a Combi Rifle that can get to B3? That's very far from broken.
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    It's situational because you can't use both Assisted Fire and Enhanced Reaction on the same remote. The choice is between B3 or B2 with Marksmanship, and as others have mathed out it's not always better for Dakini and Missile bots than the option you already had.
     
  19. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    And suppressive fire is still a very good ARO option that can be provided to any model with the appropriate weapon.
     
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  20. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    What an eye-opening statement. There should be a dissertation about it.

    You mean " 3 > 2 " ? Yes please! It´s not true without someone posting a Dice-Calculator result.

    which narrows it down to Pi-well and the ITS 14 Sensor Bot, which means: CombiRifles

    rule of thumb: Does the opponent benefit from cover, use MM. Which is incredibly logic, due to MM only interacts with enemy cover.
     
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