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The Last Quantum Mine

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Additional support for that idea.

    1. N3 Mine rules had a line that said that if an ally was affected the mine would not trigger. This is one of few rules text that wasn't just translated but removed from the N4 mine entry. I'm blind apparently
    2. General template weapon rules state that any burst of a template weapon that affects friendlies or neutrals will be cancelled and the correspondning disposable ammo lost. Mines are, as we know, disposable.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Templat...te_Weapons.2C_and_Allied_and_Neutral_Troopers

    Edit: Anyway, to sum this up;
    Either the mine's entire damage process is part of triggering, or the triggering can not be undone once it has been established.

    After all, if a unit can enter the template area later in the order and be affected by the template and therefore cause the trigger rules to step in and cause the mine to "never trigger", then the trigger process isn't quite done until at least the effects step.
     
    #21 Mahtamori, Oct 24, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
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  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    yes mine are disposable. but you are forgetting that the mine was already spent/lost when it was placed on the table and deducted from the trooper, thus when the trooper laid his final Mine he already entered the Unloaded state before we even get into the question of Is the mine wasted or not. So how can the Mine that was already consumed be consumed again ?
    "In this case of a cancelled shot, if a Weapon with the Disposable Trait was used, the initially declared use is still consumed."
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The important point isn't whether it is disposable or not, it is that for template attacks (or indeed BS Attacks in general) that fail you do not not do the attack as if nothing happened, the attack still happens and the negative consequences for the attacker still happens and the attack may still trigger responses and allow LOF through ZVZ.
     
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  4. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I meant that because it was affected at one point of its trajectory, continues to be affected throughout the whole trajectory, even to the extent that touching an enemy at some point (beginning of the move, middle, end...) would cancel the template.

    So it hits "anyone who is inside it", I think you mean "it needs to be able to hit anyone who at any point of the order was inside the trajectory" To me this is a bit odd, since it would be checking its conditions not only at declaration, or resolution, but at any point of the order.
     
  5. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps different metas have different interpretations (even wrong ones!) so this is helpful. This is kinda similar to the discussion that you could declare CC attack at any point if you were engaged at any point of the order, right? I mean, if I cannot be hit by a template because I might be Engaged at any point, the only reason I cannot declare CC attack prior to Engaging is just... an odd case specified by the FAQ?
     
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  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    No, to cancel the template, there has to be a position where unit is both in the Engaged state and touching the template. A unit the Moves exists at all points along its movement path throughout the order (All At Once principle).

    1. Active unit activates, declares Move, and moves 4".
    2. A mine is triggered and/or a unit declares an ARO with a DTW. The reactive player places the teardrop template with the blast focus touching the mine or shooter. They can place the template anywhere as long as it touches some or all of the active unit's movement path (and doesn't touch a friendly model).
    3. Active unit declares a second Move and Moves another 4", ending in the Engaged state with an enemy trooper.
    4. Resolution. The template is still on the table, and it hits everything that touches it at every point touched. So if the active trooper's movement path is only partly inside the template, he's affected by the template on those parts of his movement path but not the parts where he's not touching the template. He's in the Engaged state at the endpoint of his movement path, so if he's also touching the template at that point, then the template also affects the unit with which he's Engaged (even though that other unit not itself touching the template). If that happens, the template is affecting a friendly model so it's cancelled.

    So from the active player's perspective, the goal at step 3 to find a spot he can move to where he's Engaged while still touching the template; this protects him because it cancels the template. The reactive player's goal at step 2 is to place the template in a position where it isn't possible for the active player to do that; basically, place your templates far away from your own models.

    Usually, it's trivial for the reactive player to keep his templates away from his own models, so the scenario doesn't arise. It's only likely to come up with the reactive units are very close together (e.g. a unit that recently deployed a mine in ARO, so it's still right next to its mine, it becomes a lot more likely that the active player will be able to get into Engaged in a position that will cancel the mine template).
     
  7. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Oh, see, that is totally different to what I understood and it makes sense. The discussion seemed to be that if at any point of the move I was Engaged, and at some other totally different point I was affected by the template, then the template was cancelled. Thanks for clarifying!
     
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Rules stuff aside:

    The Last Quantum Mine actually sounds like a badass title for a piece of Indiana Jones/Cyberpunk crossover fiction (or film, or anime). That or the name of a bar.

    I actually clicked on this thread thinking it was something cool like that. Sadly it was just more of Infinity's neverending action-resolution timing issues. (No shade guys, and thanks for working this stuff out! It's just that synthwave bars or archaeologists with laser-whips are waaaaaay cooler than discussions about rules).

    I'm going to paint The Last Quantum Mine on some terrain sometime, to try to redeem this title.
     
  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    If this was true, DTWs like Flamethowers and Chain Rifles would never be able to shot to an engaging enemy.
    If this was true, you would not be allowed to shot ANY BS Weapon to an enemy who ends the order in Engaged state.

    And we know that this is not the case.


    There is only one edge case where this could happen. If there is ONLY room to place the template (of a mine) ONLY when the enemy model is Engaged and not before. Corner of buildings and similar.
     
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  10. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    Now we have 3 different ways people understand that:

    1: A unit rushes through trigger area of a mine and ends in engaged state anywhere on the other side on the map. The mine is confused and disappears into infinity without doing anything, because the mine is not allowed to hit a friendly unit she isnt even able to reach.

    2: A unit rushes into trigger area of a mine and enters engaged state with an enemy tropper in trigger area: Also, the mine is confused and vanishes into thin air cause friendly fire.

    3: A unit enters trigger area and engaged state and due to obscure terrain, very bad positioning and/or miraculous movement the mine is not able to place the template without hitting the allied trooper at any point of the enemy movement.


    At the end of the day it´s again (imho) a great example of "play as intendend" and "RAW": Mines go boom when someone steps on them. If someone stands nearby, friend or foe, doesnt matter. Someone could argue with advanced tecnhology and
    intelligent weapon systems to prevent hitting allied units, but then, lets be honest: advanced technology with ariadna? Intelligence with Yu Jing? Keep it serious...
     
    #30 anubis, Oct 25, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2022
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  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    FFS Tox, for once could you please READ THE THREAD before you post? Seriously, you do this in every single rules thread and it's getting absurd.

    This literal exact point was already made and answered a page ago. Troopers are immune to their own DTWs.
     
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  12. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    The ridiculous interpretation (that you can walk through the template and force it to be cancelled by reaching base contact with an enemy) also relies on the assumption that you don’t choose where the target of the template is hit if it is moving, and instead are forced to hit it everywhere along its movement path.

    “It’s become widely accepted” is meaningless.
     
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  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Well, I held out longer than most, but I think I'm finally giving up on this subforum. What a complete waste of time this place has become.

    The actual question I posted has been completely lost in noise from people who don't know the basics of how the rules work, and don't want to know. Mahtamori posted the relevant rules at the start of the thread. Their meaning is obvious, but all we have is a chorus of "that's ridiculous" from people who haven't posited any alternative reading and seem to just want to make up whatever rules they think would be better.

    It's really too bad. Infinity has complicated rules, and needs a good place for players to work them out. Sadly this subforum has stopped being that place.
     
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  14. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    i'm not sure about that anymore. The mine owner placed the template such that it hit an engaged model. Surely that is an illegal placement. He shouldn't be allowed to do that. If there was any other way to place the mine such that it could trigger without affecting the CC, he must do so.

    Can you voluntarily make an illegal mine placement in order to prevent the mine from triggering up ? for instance, if you would like the mine to not trigger against a sacrificial warband / holoecho ? We know the mine must trigger when possible.

    The dilemma here, is that if we allow the reactive player to declare a different, but valid, placement. Then we must allow the active player to also roll back his second short skill declaration. And with his 2nd MOV, the active player can almost always find a path that make the declared template placement illegal. Are we really allowed to simply say the mine doesn't trigger and stays there when we know that with the finally declared move+move activation there existed a way for the mine to trigger against that active order ? All that is before we even get into (3) !

    edit: tl/dr "Therefore the template is cancelled and the mine retroactively doesn't trigger." the mine has to trigger when possible. if it retroactively doesn't trigger, then it probably retroactively trigger in a different placement where that trigger is valid. (and since it was done at the first aro step; the active player can also retroactively Move elsewhere making the template once more illegal; entering an infinite loop)
     
    #34 Robock, Oct 28, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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