I think the current rules have almost eliminated quantum mine effects... but we may have found one that remains. Angus the fusilier is standing next to a friendly mine. The Alguacile Ortega declares Move and moves to a spot near Angus. The Move triggers the mine, so Angus' player removes the mine from the table and places a template touching Ortega. Ortega now declares a second Move. He moves to a spot where he is (1) in silhouette contact with Angus, (2) touching the mine template, and (3) standing in the spot the mine used to be. The combined effect of (1) and (2) is that the template would hit Angus. Therefore the template is cancelled and the mine retroactively doesn't trigger. "A Mine never triggers if the Small Teardrop Template would affect an ally." But, we can't put the mine back on the table because Ortega is standing where the mine used to be. Because the mine never triggered, Ortega retroactively wasn't allowed to move onto the mine. But if Ortega didn't move onto the mine, then the mine would trigger, which would allow Ortega to move onto it, which would prevent it from triggering, which would prevent Ortega from moving onto it, which would allow it to trigger... It may sound esoteric but it's come up in-game twice now. What happens?
Wouldn't the template hit while Ortega is moving before he gets into silhouette contact? Just like when you declare a BS attack against a trooper that moved into silhouette contact with an enemy you don't suffer the shooting into melee penalty.
This is only an issue if you follow the common interpretation that the mine finishes triggerering immediately during the skill declaration parts of the order. If you allow the mines triggering to be done (and thus removed) only after all of its effects are done (after rolls) this is not an issue. That also fixes the headache of what happens if you shoot a triggering mine. No, template attacks stick around for the entire order, the rules call this out fairly explicitly. There is no support in the rules to selectively choose a specific point in the when a mine hits and then not have it hit elsetime.
Huh, interesting. I was vaguely aware of this debate but hadn't really looked at it. I guess the argument would be that "Once a Mine triggers, it is removed from play" is an Effect of the Mines rule, and Effects happen at Resolution? Reinforced by the fact that we don't actually know for sure whether a mine will trigger until Resolution, since a provisional triggering could be cancelled by the second short skill. Are there arguments on the other side? I don't recall this one having been gone into on the rules forum. The IGL rules clarifications say that the mine is removed immediately, but don't say why.
I my oppinion the mine triggers normaly after Alguacile Ortega is activated with an order/activation and moves into LoF and Trigger Area of the mine (8,3"small template). Alguacile Ortega can move into base to base as usual and then has to make the save against the mine and what ever the aro from Angus is. In short I belive that Alguacile Ortega is only locked in Close combat AFTER the mine is resolved, unless the mine can only see Alguacile Ortega when she is in Base to Base with Angus.
No, the mine is definitely cancelled. A template hits anything that's inside it at every point it touches them, and if it hits someone who's in the Engaged state, it hits everyone with whom they're Engaged. Engaged is activated as soon as silhouette contact is reached. All that is clear. What's unclear is what happens if Ortega is also standing on the spot the mine used to be when the mine gets cancelled (and whether Ortega is allowed to move to that spot in the first place).
Wait where is that? I see the point about everybody who crosses a template as placed being affected, but them carrying the effect of the template through the trajectory is new. Where is that in the rules if you can please?
exactly. his point is that it affect the model, not only at the point where it first touched it; but at every point where the target is still touching the template. So if one of those point is while in Engaged then the template affected a model that is Engaged and you apply those rules too.
I'm not sure what you mean by "carrying the effect through the trajectory," possible you misunderstood my post. As Mahtamori pointed out above, the template is placed at declaration. At Resolution, it hits anyone who's inside it. If it hits a unit where the unit is in the Engaged state, then it also hits the unit with which that unit is Engaged. It doesn't carry through a trajectory, it just hits everything that it hits.
If that would be the case you could not shoot if someone moves into Base to Base contact with your Model. and that is a common thing with chainrifles or other template weapons if the moving trooper is overwelmingly good in CC. I see the mine the same way as another Trooper with a direct template weapon. He could also shoot you before you are engaged as the point where the template is declared your trooper is not yet in engaged state. As to the mine and the spot where the mine was, I would say the Mine/camo-token gets removed at the conclusion of the order and as such you cannot be in that space.
Template attacks specify that anyone touching the template is affected, regardless of where they are in relation to the target location. In addition to this, the rules for template weapons and close combat does not actually care about whether anyone is affected, targeted, or hit (note: Intuitive Attack) by the template; it only cares about the template being placed in contact with any trooper involved in the close combat. "When using a Template Weapon or Equipment, any Trooper whose base or Silhouette Template is in contact with the Template, or is partially or fully inside it, is affected by the Weapon or Equipment." "Template Weapons placed on a group of Troopers engaged in Close Combat will always affect every Trooper involved, even if, due to the Template’s placement, it contacts only some of them."
That would be true if not for the Important box in the Direct Template Weapon rule which states "Despite being in contact with the Template, Troopers declaring an Attack with a Direct Template will not be affected by it, unless otherwise specified in the Weapon's, Skill's or Type of Ammunition's description." The DTW isn't cancelled if it hits the Trooper using it, but it is cancelled if it hits any other friendly trooper. Again, templates don't shoot at points. They cover areas. That's what makes them templates. Mahtamori has already quoted the relevant rules text. To put it in narrative terms, you don't shoot a person with a flamethrower, you cover a whole area with fire. But you don't pull the trigger if your friend is also going to be incinerated.
For real, though, by implication I don't think this is how it works. When you walk around a corner and eat three chain rifles, you can't cancel 2 of them by walking into melee with one of the shooters. I think there's a technical "line of fire" needed to be declared when using templates to avoid this scenario.
Normally the shooters aren't going to place their templates in a position where you'll still be covered by them while Engaged with one of them. On the rare occasions where they do, due to some quirk in the terrain, yes of course it works that way. Always has. It's just a consequence of templates affecting Engaged units, you can't fire templates into CC.
That is my point. It might not be how some read the rules but please it is a game and it is to be PLAYED, not trying to gotcha people with rules.
If you don't want to know how the rules work then why post in the rules subforum at all? Seriously, this isn't controversial. It's well established and normal that templates are cancelled if they hit a unit Engaged with a friendly model. Sorry if that's a surprise to you but it's no excuse to accuse people of "trying to gotcha people with rules." In both games that led to my post, it was my opponent who cancelled my mine by moving into CC. He was right to do it and it would be ridiculous for me to accuse him of some sort of misconduct for knowing the rules of the game.
I find you reading of the rules ridiculous. sorry if that offends you. https://infinitythewiki.com/Mines "Once on the game table, Mines must trigger when an enemy Model or Marker declares or executes a Skill or ARO inside their Trigger Area, checking it at that moment by placing the Small Teardrop Template." If you declare your move into the trigger area of a Mine you are NOT engadged allready and if the template of the mine can be placed as such that your own trooper is not under it, the Mine explodes. in the resolution of the order or activation you have to make all corosponding saves, or face to face rolls regardless of your second declaration or if it was your second move. to your secound point: "Once a Mine triggers, it is removed from play." So you can move to the spot the mine occupied earlyer as the Mine did trigger as a result of you declaring your move, and not at the conclusion of the order as I falsly implied.
I should perhaps note that there is another way to read the mine triggering text; If you read the text such that the mine trigger being exclusively the process of determining if there is an enemy active in the Trigger Area (and as such, doing damage with the mine is not part of the triggering process), then immediately when the mine has placed its template the mine is removed and the window to return the mine to an untriggered state is removed. In other words; once a mine's template has been placed, should the second skill declaration make it so that the a friendly unit is affected by the template, the template attack is removed but the mine is not replaced on the table.
This was actually how my opponent initially thought it would work. I thought he was wrong, but you make a decent case for it here. It would be consistent with how I think Explode works if there's a friendly model (the template is cancelled but the unit still goes to Dead). It would be pretty harsh to be able to cancel your opponent's mine and remove the mine, but, maybe? Hmm, I don't think I buy it. "A Mine never triggers if the Small Teardrop Template would affect an ally" and "Once a Mine triggers, it is removed from play" would seem to make it impossible to remove a mine from play it the template would affect an ally.
