This bonus can only be added to a large weapon, so a unit cannot get a bonus when shooting a pistol or other bs weapon. And when the Criza is dodging, this bonus won't apply, so it's less effective against non-MSV units
Rejnhard had it right, it would be like a half nanoscreen. Costed less than full nanoscreen of course but i could see an argument for full nanoscreen.
The applications for BS Attack-3 are much wider. For example: your Bolt catches a Bear or Ajax or Taigha, or something, they opt to Dodge. Since they are Impetuous, your Marksmanship does nothing and they'll Dodge on their 16 vs your 16, which means it's not that big of a deal. With BS Attack-3 the same troops in the example would suffer a -3 to their Dodge. Another application is you can shoot a hacker trying to hack you and their Comms Attack would get -3 as well. "You are a Martial Artist? I can do some Martial Arts too: I shoot you as your enter silhouette contact and you take a -3 to your CC." The list goes on. But basically you'd apply a -3 everytime you do a F2F regardless of what skill the opponent declares and that is much more powerful, generically speaking than ignoring Cover.
How I wrote earlier, he cost a lot and only thing that he can do is shoot. Even in this example if my elite gunfighter for 54 cant kill taigha for 5 its totally ridiculous.
I'm not sure how much you got to use original N3 kriza, but if you can't understand how stupidly dominant that skill was, just go ahead and play some games with it again. Now, if your argument is the Kriza is underwhelming and needs a buff, I can understand it. Not sure if I agree with it, but I can see some reasoning.
I played a lot, even played with him on interplanetario. In n3 it was only option to shotout with fireteams on equal in vanila. Now with nerf of fireteams old fullauto will be realy strong, but not gamebreaking. He still has weaknesses of HI and high cost. Only reason not to do this - is buffing already strong vanila nomads.
I played a game for bahram against corregidor yesterday. I won initiative and took first turn and just annihilate my opponent. Everyone who says that bokhtar is very expensive for haqs is totally wrong. "Tou need to deciede what HI do you want to take in the list now." No i dont, i just took everything in roster. I just killed hacker with fiday and kill almost everything with bokhtar. She's just unstopable, you are easily dodging mines and templates, easily win ftf even with fireteams. And aditional you've got heavy haris with asawiras and core of ghulams with specialists and HRL, so even if loose her your other infintry is very strong.
No that's both wrong and a false equivalent. Marksmanship is a skill that denies MODs to the opponent. It's in the category as Natural Born Warrior and MSV, which are skills that do nothing if the opponent doesn't have a MOD to deny. BS Attack -3 is a skill the applies MODs to the opponent. It's in the category as Mimetism and Cover, which are skills that always does something unless the opponent has the skill particular to this from the above category. Cover is (partially) denied by Marksmanship Mimetism is denied by MSV Surprise Attack applies to Dodge as well but is denied by Sixth Sense BS Attack -3 applies to Dodge as well but is denied by <nothing> You've gotten obsessed with this particular MOD and you're comparing it to completely different units. If your argument is that the Kriza is too expensive then I agree with you, but I don't agree that it is appropriate to bring back rules that were over-the-top just to justify the price and I don't know whether I agree that it would be appropriate to give the Kriza more stuff to justify the cost. Also, congrats on wrecking your opponent with the Bokhtar. Enjoy it until they learn how to protect against hackable parachutists with low BTS and token CC ability. It is probably a profile that HB really didn't need, HB was one of the strongest sectorials before the re-release and didn't really need anything, but that also goes to show how you're obsessively comparing to the strongest out there.
With the same logic, you can force the Kriza to dodge or reset or use cc in smoke and not get yourself a -3 MOD.
At the same time, the Marksmanship gives a bonus against the enemy in cover, regardless of what skill he declared on the aro. Yes, this will not work against impet. units or units without cover (if you went out on them in such a condition). But in normal situations, the marksmanship gives more bonuses than the BS attack -3
There is no Joy in totally one-sided games. If you think that is nice game disign decision, i am very sad aboute it. Problem is thats in one army with bokhtar we've got imp with shotgun, which can easy kill enemy hacker and than bokhtar freely kills everything left. Just tell me how can you defend against such brutal alphastrike? I still dont uderstand why this is okay. My college even give you math that proof, that marksmanship work better then bs attack -3. Your only argument that its work even on models with no cover or empetous is pretty weak. Imho model with such high cost can afford surely kill cheapest warbands with smokes or dodge +3 or models without cover.
I would say that part of it is the universality of a BS attack, opposed to the relative niches of CC attacks and dodging. Also a huge part of the convo imho is the unit that actually gets the ability. Getting into CC is gonna require more orders/risks/equipment then just shooting someone, and even then CC attack (-x) afaik isn't given to any CC monsters, but more as a defense against CC monsters. The Odalisque, which has the hilarious CC attack (-9) isn't really a fantastic piece for CC. In QK, the sectorial with the best use case for the Odalisque, the Yuan Yuan is a better CC piece as it has parachutist/combat jump/smoke to get it there, a better CC attribute, and higher PH for it's DA CCW. Dodge is also for the most part a defensive ability - it might keep a unit alive for longer, or help it get out of the LoS of a particularly nasty gun, but it doesn't really change the situation all that much in comparison to shooting someone. Also I don't fully understand the marksmanship comparison? Yeah it's good, but unlike BS attack (-3), there are ways around (e.g., in the active turn, try and set up a shot where you catch the marksmanship unit out of cover as well, essentially evening the odds, while direct templates in general don't care), and strong units that don't get impacted by it that much (impetuous warbands with smoke/direct templates are common, strong, and don't care about marksmanship).
You are talking about aro marksmanship models, I am talking about active turn shooters. Almost all marksmanship guys also have msv, so they shoot at most targets on 16, Kriza will shot at memetism units on 10. Wow how strong.
So, is this thread the new hill someone senslessly chose to die on after "Nomad TAGs not having Courage is a bug in the army app"? Amazing. The forums never fail to entertain.
Aside from a Grenzer profile, a Neoterra Bolt profile and Atalanta - none of whom have high burst weapons - which units have MSV and Marksmanship? I took a quick check through the army builder, but maybe I missed some. Besides that, a lot of active turn Marksmanship shooters need a pure link fireteam built around them to really make themselves quality active turn shooters (Bolts, Zhayedans, Grenzers) - fireteams that are expensive, clunky, and exploitable. Sure the Kriza looks pretty ok for the cost and next to it's competitors, but BS Attack (-3) seems like not an especially fun or interesting way to buff it. Even if it did get it, it wouldn't make it an especially better shooter against Mimetism. Idk, maybe immunity AP or MSV or something.
I quickly skimmed Army for profiles with Marksmanship. It is not a common skill: Atalanta - MULTI Sniper Rifle /w MSV L2 Bolt - Boarding Shotgun, Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun, Missile Launcher, Spitfire; MULTI Sniper Rifle with MSV L1 Grenzer - MULTI Sniper Rifle /w MSV L1 Spetsaz - AP Rifle, AP Sniper Rifle, Boarding Shotgun, Heavy Machine Gun Wild Bill - Contender/Rifle, MULTI Pistol (+1B) Zhayedan - Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Rifle, Heavy Machine Gun, Light Shotgun, Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifle I included shotguns as, despite having a template mode, they can be fired in non-template mode and benefit from Marksmanship. We can see both active and reactive profiles with Marksmanship, but the combination of Marksmanship and MSV is rare and exclusively found on MULTI Sniper Rifle profiles. As others have said, this thread is extremely weird. What kind of college course explicitly teaches Infinity statistics? Of all the things that could/should be done to fix balance in Infinity, giving the Kriza BS Attack (-3) in place of Mimetism (-3) again is not one I would have put on my list at all, let alone the top of my list. This thread is definitely in the same level as 'Nomad TAGs not having Courage is a bug.'
I started this thread with the though of that cb cant give us something new and all new profile is msv/memetism combo. And you offer also transform old units into this, brilliant move! I don’t know how it is in other countries, but we have a theory of probability even in the school curriculum, where kids do tasks on counting the probability of getting certain numbers on the dices. It is not very Hard you can find formulas in the internet
I would consider Kriza to loose +1B and mimetism for BS attack -3. Looks fair deal for me. If we will stop considering Kriza at this point - Sogarat Fuerbach is ok model to use that skill. Basically low B models will win from that rule, so you can engage some troopers with low B weapon to maximize your chances. I wish CB won’t do another msv+mimetism unit……
You mean what's essentially been in the game for decades in Martial Arts and a new skill that's a lot less impactful because it's got 0 (zero) damage potential to the opponent? Not even close to equivalent. The absolutely closest to equivalent you can get is Mimetism. Oh wait. That's what you've got on this unit. You just want it to apply to opponent dodging and don't want it negated by unit abilities. What a coinkidink.
