I think what he's referring to is more about what trooper is impetuous or irregular. Being irregular isn't a huge deal for the likes of McMurrough, Beasthunters, or Chimera, but it can be detrimental to the likes of Bandits, Cube Jäger, or most 6-point warbands. Not that a point or two in discount is all that huge... Being impetuous or frenzy is a pretty big discount and negating it fully for the duration in which it would be detrimental is likewise a pretty big benefit. Most impetuous or frenzy units are... let's just call it "reasonably priced" when they don't get to avoid the drawback. Asawira in a fireteam can easily be more of an effective order discount than e.g. CA's Gakis and Pretas becoming Regular when in a fireteam with an Oznat. It's not all that common for these kinds of troopers to lose their team without also losing their lives, after all, and the discount is significant even for the cheapest of these troopers.
Oh yes. I do understand which kind of irregulars Hecaton is reffering to (and Pretas are a great example of negating drawbacks and then getting free discount). However the question with which this part of the discussion started is "what is a CA's faction weakness". So it looks like according to Hecaton CA's faction weakness is that they don't get Riot Grrls or Raul Spector. If I understand him correctly this time. I probably don't :)
Upgrade programs are very much a CA trademark, Hecaton! Nourk, Bit, Anna, Samaritan, Kerr, Dartok and Skia all get very nice upgrade programs.
That wasn't my point. My point is that Nomads get better access to those for all-around the best hacking with a minimum of other downsides.
Yes, and just aggressively discounted troops in general. The points/utility curve for something like a Greif vs. something like a Fiday is slanted heavily in favor of the Fiday.
Do you claim that CA is uniquely disadvantaged in this regard? That is, among all the factions (not just the ones that you consider OP), CA is the one with the least amount of attractively priced or too-good-for-its-points profiles?
I said that plasma rifle variant was the best profile (because of templates and total immunity troopers) but overall total reaction bots are kinda meh. Taighas not undercosted and very good at filling up that 2nd combat group?
Not any more than any other warband. They don't have smoke grenades and their template weapon is small. Useful, sure.
5 point Shaolin vs. 5 point Taigha. Seems pretty fair to me. Smoke Grenades are one of the most powerful abilities in the game.
If you argue with someone who just wants to argue, you're just going to get more argument. It can only go in circles.
Of course when you do a direct comparison it might look equal. But that's now how it's played. It's of course not the Taiga's throwing smoke, it's the Speculo who's less than 8" away from the target. But in Yu Jing it's only the Shaolin throwing it over and over again to get to where it needs to go. Or even better, it's a Raysat who just landed or on the edge and throws eclipse.
You can talk about different situations, but the Shaolin and Taigha look like sidegrades to me. They're both equal in terms of cost, and are both useful, but nobody complains about the Shaolin's cost.
No, instead of smoke they get to dodge 4" around corners on 16s and then Beserk 12" and take out models many times their cost with nothing the opponent can do about it. Definitely a bit OP there
No People don't complain about Shaolin because they are not a problem that is hard to deal with. Taiga are.
Of cause people complain about Shaolin, they are laughable cheap smoke throwers and template terrorists that can rush the Table and they also can be cheap Order generators in the right sectorial.
You mean like Morlocks. And Kum. And Muttawi`ha. And Desperados. And Immardinhos. And Highlander. No one complains about Monks cause u find comparable equivalents in half of all armies or at least a boosted options like Makauls, Varangians, Daturazis, Jaguars,... Taigas on the other hand are unstoppable 12inch suicide bombs you can only counter by "holding 2 or 3 ARM saves against DMG13"
@Hecaton I don't think your arguments are having the effect you want them to have in this thread. I don't think the argument of Only My Faction Should Do This is an argument that resonates with anyone, you know?
