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Hassassin or Ramah?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Duront, Aug 27, 2022.

  1. Duront

    Duront Well-Known Member

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    Hello!

    I am excited to start a new army with Blackwind models but I was curious if people what peoples opinions are on which sectorial is more fun to play; Ramah or Hassassin. I understand that they models are mainly for Hassassin but I am fine proxying them for Ramah.

    Which sectorial would you recommend or enjoy playing?
     
  2. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    HB is definitely more powerful, but fun is very subjective.

    When RTF came out I was already playing HB & QK, and I tried a couple games with RTF. The Tarik/Khawarji superjump options are fun to play on active turns, but the fact they are very fragile on reactive turns are problematic. RFT has a lot more FD NWI guys and you can have a couple in an army simultaneously, making for a list that is in your face and tougher. I never really gave those a shot.

    I've occasionally play vanilla so I can use Saladin, Maggy & Tarik for fun. If I'm not in the mood for HB, I find QK fills the need and RFT just wasn't interesting enough. Now that HB got a superjump HI it's even less interesting. Another (ex-)unique feature RTF had that HB recently got was the option to play smoke & MSV2. HB used to have a lot of gaps in it's play options, but in the last couple years they slowly filled them to have virtually everything. Yara filled MSV2, They already had smoke, but now they got the Ghulam NCO which used to be RTF only.

    HB has a couple multi-wound options, but not enough to spread across your army. RFT has a lot more NWI guys and you can have a couple in an army simultaneously.

    In one of the recent videos, they showed and ranked all the sectorals by popularity and RFT was fairly low (See Below). Unfortunately QK for retired because of lack of players. That was only because at one point they were the only faction with wildcard (a little OP). When everyone else got wildcards, QK actually lost a fireteam option and was no longer 'shiny' and players moved to other sectorals.

    With all that being said, HB is probably the better choice for 'FUN'. I don't normally recommend the Haqq action pack because the models are not HB oriented. But if you do plan on proxying RTF for fun, get it. The 'fun'-est model in RTF is Tarik. Now that HB got McMurrough you'll want a 40mm proxy.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    RTF now has the Coherent cheap linked Zhayedan which is pretty unique. You get a B2 BS15 Marksmanship Sixth Sense sniper or missile launcher for dirt cheap. So if you find a powerful ARO fun, there's something to be said for RTF. That said, HB's Daylamis are also a cheap ARO that you might find fun, so it's not a clear win for RTF.

    Carmen and Batard are also fun, but now HB has McMurrough to do the same thing but funner.

    Both have good midfield shooters (Mukhtar vs. Asawira).

    In every other way, HB has far more options for playstyle than RTF does. You have Impersonators, other skirmishers, better Parachutists now, Minelayers... RTF really doesn't have much to recommend it these days other than the Zhayedan link. And its lack of a viable skirmisher is really glaring.

    @Grotnib will no doubt chime in with some ideas on what makes RTF fun, though.
     
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  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The secret theme of HB is having (extremely marginally worse version of) every rule in the game (for a fraction of the cost).

    You can easily (and I think it's the best way to) build a HB list by having a ridiculous spread of tools in a way that you'll always have a counter to your opponent's main game plan.

    I think HB is the most fun faction in the game for that reason, as you could easily take the same list 30+ games in a row (and I did) and have every game play wildly differently.
     
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  5. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    I would say HB, for the simple fact that you have so many options now available. The Bokhtar not only allowed HB to be incredibly more shooty, but also 6-2 Super-Jumping manoeuvrable at the same time. A combination of domains which was supposed to be Ramah's speciality.

    Then you have a whole slate of skirmisher options to play with, chaff units to trade with, plus now you even have the fun of slotting in Mcmurrough too for some reason. The single option of Carmen & Batard is incredibly fun yes, but somewhat limiting in the sense that they are the only real option for the role they fulfil in RTF.
     
  6. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I only play RTF so I'm not qualified to compare them to HB at any dept, but my take on the subject (now that @QueensGambit more or less asked for it) is that if you like the RTF units, then Ramah is the best place play them! The "Pure" Core with a Zhayedan pointman is the thing that most people take note of about them just as mentioned above, but beyond that they're a versatile Faction that can project a multitude of threat vectors even with a very limited amount of models and their lists are very easy to build redundancy into. They don't seem to be the most outright powerful Sectorial at the moment, but on the otherhand they seem to have tools for dancing with pretty much anybody. What I also love about them is the fact that they don't seem to have any truly bad units that one should avoid, and they seem to have an incredibly high skill ceiling - I can't seem to play RTF enough to master every facet of the Faction!

    Hope this helps!

    EDIT. When it comes to what @Cannon Fodder stated about the apparent unpopularity of RTF in ITS play should be taken with a slight grain of salt - I suspect that post Fireteam Update data has little effect on the chart, and Ramah Taskforce not only had some rather lukewarm FT options prior to the Update, but some of their Units also got a revamp as well!
     
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  7. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    One thing I should add about HB, that @Diphoration mentioned was that they lean heavily into 1 very strong list. Meaning that you will probably be paying very similar lists for most scenarios. Blackwind added some new fun stuff, but it usually means adding fun models over better models. I personally get bored playing the same list after 3-4 games. I actually find having different lists for different scenarios more enjoyable. It allows more diverse gameplay. It will come down to your definition of fun. If you want to have winning list, HB is probably better. If you want more diverse gameplay experiences You may want RTF. HB list diversity usually means lowering list strength, and that means some models never leave you case. As @Grotnib mentioned the popularity chart needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I believe its taken from ITS tournament data, which means its from players that are going to tournaments with their better lists.

    @Diphoration Can you post your HB 'take all' list. You have it refined to perfection. I haven't played HB since the last update and nuked all my old lists.
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That's probably true to a degree if you want the winning list, although there are still real debates about the best HB builds. I don't think the sectorial has been solved.

    That said, if you want diversity over optimization, I think you probably get more of it in HB than RTF. HB can do camo spam, it can do a TAG list (hell, it can do a pretty good double TAG list), it can do a hacking list. You can pretend you're Invincible Army and run a three Asawiras and two Muyibs in a death star link. You can play games with hidden deployment. You can load up on smoke and CQB experts. Most of those lists will probably still be stronger than the strongest RTF list, even if they're not all optimal by HB standards :-)
     
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  9. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    *long sigh* While I have a huge respect of you has a player and an expert on HB, this is exactly the type of conversation culture that in my opinion makes it so hard to have a positive, constructive discussion on things like this topic among the Infinity community!

    I respect and tend to agree with your assessment that the Hassassins haven't neccessarily been solved in the post Fireteam Update era, but isn't then de facto calling RTF (a Faction that you don't to the best of my knowledge play) solved somewhat... bold? While I may not be as a good a player as you, I main the **** out of RTF and I have no idea what is "the best RTF list" at the moment! It took me close to 100 games of playing the Shakush before I felt confortable in my assessment of that single piece's place in the Faction - a place that is in flux as of know as the Sectorial and the meta re-aligns itself after the changes that have recently happened! If then again by "the best RTF lists" you are referring to some of the (pretty horribly one trick pony) lists that some famous players used in the first tournaments following the Update, then I don't know what to say...

    If all people are interested in are more chances to report their perceived views on Factions as the cold hard truths, then best not ping me in those conversations! If @Duront wishes to know how I feel about RTF, check out my blog. How they compare with the Hassassins in the long run I dare not say - first because I'm not an expert on HB (nor am I bold enough to claim to be one), and second because we really don't know where the meta will settle in let's say the ITS14!

    Despite all this, have a great day everyone!
     
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  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    What I said with HB is that you can take a single list that will play differently over 30+ games, but that doesn't mean that the faction does only a single list.

    You have to try very hard to play 2 games of HB that will look anything similar, whereas I find most fireteam-based faction (the ones who's only upside compared to vanilla is getting linked bonuses) tend to play extremely samey.

    There is a lot of different ways to build HB, especially since Blackwind added some very powerful (but pricey) profiles, which cannot be slotted in the typical lists that were run as a 1:1 swap. The update made HB listbuilding a much deeper puzzle than it was.

    I'd argue that HB is, by far, the faction that has the most possible diverse playstyles, which is the reason I main the faction.
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Oh, I pinged you because you would disagree with me. OP deserves to hear both sides! Doesn't mean I agree with you ;-)

    My assertion is that (a) HB is stronger than RTF, and (b) HB can run a wide variety of list types, most of which will probably be stronger than RTF at its strongest. Please do tell the OP why I'm wrong. I could be wrong! I've been wrong before. I pinged you so that you can show that I'm wrong. I even used the word "probably" twice as a reminder that I might be wrong. I don't think I'm wrong, though.
     
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  12. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    @Grotnib, I did not interpret @QueensGambit original statement as hostile to you. While he disagrees with your stance on RTF, he knows that you would probably be the best on the forum to argue a counter point about the capabilities of RTF.
     
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  13. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    You already have a lot of answer, but I want to share my thoughs about. I'm with the approach thast "fun" is hardly measurable, and it depends a lot of what do you like to play and, of course, how. What we can know in "play" is:

    -Ramah has a more direct approach when playing. Is not a 100% what you see is what you get, but almost.
    -Ramah has "more powerful fireteams" than hassasin, zayedan with marksman and being "ghulams for fireteam composition" are one of the best "linkeable" profiles in Game, not only "haquisslam".
    -Ramah has access to one of the best parachutist "the Namur".

    -Hassasin has great fireteams, muyibs as wildcards do the trick, becoming less powerfull than Ramah''s but more flexible.
    -Midtable control, with a bunch of profiles with deployment skills (impersonators, infiltration, forward deployment) Hassasin can play to "populate" the midfield.
    -Flexibility while you have excelents profiles to "be direct" (asawira, bokthar, etc). you are less dependant of this, if you hammer strategy fails you still can play more cautious and subversive.

    If you find yourself happier playing a HAMMER, then go to Ramah, but if not, then go to hassasin, they are more like the "sonic screwdriver" ;)

    Whatever you choose it will be the right choice and I wish you "a lot of fun games".
     
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  14. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I think you're right quite right, and probably I should have gone a different route when comes to engaging in the conversation that followed! The thing that I take issue with is making unsubstantiated claims and then expecting someone else to take the time to counter such arguments, but maybe that's a cultural thing, eh? ;)

    I think neither of the Factions being discussed is solved at top level, and the meta is still at shift. As of right now, you'd probably get a lower return for your money for winning a bet on HB to win a major tournament than succesfully betting on RTF doing so (if such bets were a thing), but the you'd still surely get better odds for betting on a great ITS player using RTF to outdo a middling player running HB! Other than that, @Urobros made rather nice an assessment above, and I tend to more or less agree with most of his points! He was propably talking about the "Nahab" when he accidentally said "Namurr" though! :)

    All in all I'd be pretty confident to say that OP can't go wrong here, and following the "rule of cool" would not be a bad way to go! :)
     
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  15. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    as @Grotnib noticed I did it wrong. Even I went to the army to check the Name, i guess some idea crossed my mind, but never become a reality, only a "mistake in the name" :D
     
  16. Duront

    Duront Well-Known Member

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    Thank you to everyone! Your comments were very helpful!
    I have one follow-up question, I currently play Shasvasti. How similar are Hassassin and Shasvasti in playstyle? There seems to be a fair bit of overlap. If they are similar in style, I might play RTF just to have a different feel.
     
  17. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    If you are coming from Shas, then I definitely recommend RTF over Hassassin. There is a lot of overlap between Shas and Hassassins, so if you want something new, go with RTF.
     
  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Some similarities, but that's just a virtue of HB having access to all the rules, it contains a bit of every factions. It plays widly differently than Sha though imo.
     
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  19. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    I have played both RTF and HB a LOT over the years (played RTF in both last global campaigns, and the ITS season before COVID, and a bit after COVID, and played HB for years (until RTF came out), and now with their...5th?6th?18th? Rework.

    They do not play the same, but they are both very fun in their own rights. If you enjoy crazy super soldiers doing silly things, then RTF is a lot of fun. Nahab is still one of the most fun miniatures for me in line with the Asawira just for how bonkers they are. I enjoy Muhktar and Khawarij equally and for different reasons. Khawarij got a buff for their movement and abilities with N4 for the better. They are bruisers who push in on the active turn then jump ontop of rooftops and go prone on reactive. Muhktar are hunter killers taking advantage of lopsided fire fights but less strong weapons. Zhayaden are where they should have been previously and are the point men, veterans of ghulams taking out threats at long range, and the namurr is just a pain in the opponents side.

    In Hassassins you need to be a bit more strategic. I would say that their Impersonators are better than Speculos simply due to their increased utility and no SWC. Thus they are cheaper and more expendable. Asawira is just fun, and Daylami are excellent speed bumps so you dont need to focus as much on hard ARO presence, you can safely hide deep in your deployment zone and have the opponent deal with the daylami. With HB I feel MUCH safer in my own deployment zone simply due to the daylami tokens, Nadhir, and ghazi jammers. Alpha striking a HB deployment turn 1 is less than ideal. Farzan are also EXCELLENT infiltrators, and the new Bohktar is growing on me. The Sunduqbut Minelayer is also a lot of fun, and can be a big suprise.

    Really it comes down to which style you find more interesting, and which troops you find more interesting. If all else fails...just get it all.
     
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  20. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    HB

    HB is extremely flexible in how you wish to build your list(s). You can go the traditional route by focusing on value or my preferred way - synergy. I spent years tinkering with lists till just recently. I hope you enjoy your journey as much as I did. :)

    RTF feels far more structured and limited in that most of your attack vectors will come from the deployment zone and you will have more pressure on select models to perform and survive. I have built one serious and one less serious list out of them. View RTF as a way to round out your HB play style if that makes any sense.
     
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