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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Who's your Lt tho?
     
  2. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    It is sad when this is almost the only reason to use a mini with an obvious wip and paper thin armor.

    If they have nomads another wip 15 lt option it would improve the Interventor.

    If they have nomads a good alternative lieutenant option, it would mean the Interventor was never used.
     
  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It's almost like this is a deliberate design weakness people who think Nomads are too strong typically overlook.
     
  4. SpectralOwl

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    Might be my armies- my NCA, Yu Jing, Bakunin (I know about Uberfallkommando but have never tracked down a box) and MRRF have Mirage-5 between the lot of them to actually exploit that "weakness", and Loss of LT. is often argued to be an unfun mechanic itself. And honestly, I think my lineup of LTs in Bakunin is better than in NCA- Taskmasters are tough with built-in Hacking defense, Custodiers can use their LT order actively and have Cybermask for safety, and Moderators are now a lot better than average at surviving CC assassins.
     
  5. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    NCA has Chain of Command though.
     
  6. SpectralOwl

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    Yep, and I make heavy use of it with how bad the actual LTs are- plus it's a liability in missions that award points for killing LTs. In all it's not a bad tool and my Bolt CoC probably sees the field as much as my other keystone pieces, but it really isn't equal to having a really good LT in the first place.
     
  7. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    I would argue otherwise. Having an option to effectively force double the effort from your opponent to cause LoL is in my opinion better than counting on Moderators -6 para CC to stop speculo. But it may be a case of grass is greener.
     
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  8. Angry Clown

    Angry Clown Well-Known Member

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    When ever i make a vanilla nomads list.
    After putting all the needed units, i say "ok now i am ready for this mission" and realise that i need about 10 15 points to reach 300 pts still and i upgrade units.
    with any other armies, i try to reduce to points and try to cut expensive units and put a few rems inside.

    When i check Nomads i cant see any deficieny except obvious LT and chain of command skill.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I wouldn't say it's deliberate because there's plenty of other factions/sectorials with the obvious Lt issue that don't have enough to make up the difference (like OCF and USARF).
     
  10. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    Both have a camo Lt option. Something that was removed from Nomads in n4.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    For 1 and 2 swc, respectively. And I'd encourage you to try making lists for those factions and trying to see how much you lose for taking said camo lieutenants.

    Meanwhile Nomads have low-cost high-reward options like double Morans.
     
  12. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    Point stands. They can if they need to protect their Lt in ways Nomads don't. Wasn't it you who complained that it's a GML meta and Lts are dieing left and right to it? Camo makes them invulnerable. Might be worth some SWC.

    And CA has ikadrons, or q-dron or caliban. And PanO has Karhu. And Haqq has Asawira and Daylami. Factions do have cool units.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If it is, the game is broken. Because the investment to protect yourself from that trick is much greater than the investment to have it. Also, the Interventor can cybermask. Doesn't work top of 1, but is a pretty good defense other than that.



    They do, but it's rare to see no-brainers like double Morans in every list.
     
  14. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    GML is 1.5 SWC. Hacker for spotlight is 0.5. That's minimum. I don't get where you take your "much greater".

    So it pretty much doesn't work half of the time. That's a pretty big "but".
    Also costs some SWC too, eats up an order and throws the guy out of a FT, thus losing access to 6sense. These are trade-offs - things that you keep not noticing if Nomads have to do them.

    I would argue that the opposite is true. There seems to be quite a few staples in most armies. But I do feel this line of argumentation is very subjective, quite meta dependent and not easy to quantify.

    Also I'm bit tired of defending and I'm genuinely curious - so a question.
    What is the CA's big weakness that offsets all the great toys and units they have access to? For Nomads it is leadership. Now, one can argue how much is that of a weakness, or if there are some single sectorials among (30?) of them that have it almost as bad as the whole of Nomads in terms of Lts. But the weakness is there, and it has been made more pronounced this edition with removal of Intruder Lt and Lt's WIP becoming public information which obviously hits non-CoC, non camo-Lt faction more.
    What's the CA's weakness?
     
    #674 Rejnhard, Aug 25, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
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  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    So a question back to you. How many times has their "bad" leadership actually effected you? I play mostly Yu Jing but I almost never take CoC because it's on expensive troops. That makes us almost even as far as danger of LoL goes.

    As far as CA goes, they don't have many weaknesses. It used to be that they were always outnumbered but that's not an issue anymore. But they still do pay a premium for good troops most of the time. They don't have many doctors or medics. The troops you mentioned are good but they are not game changers. Q-Drones can still be put into -12. Ikadrons are fairly weak. Caliban? I don't see that too much.
     
  16. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    I do not play Nomads. Been Haqq player for long time. I might start Tunguska.

    Do they get bloat or do they get useful skills? Because if its something useful, then it's not a weakness.

    YJ has less. Also the doctor CA has is quite good and covers many classifieds.

    They can. Fairly easily and order efficiently with a camo skirmisher. The big difference is, unless said skirmisher has msv1, the chances to take a drone down fall from 56% (for normal drone) to 43% (for mimetic q). That's significant for 1 point of extra cost.

    9 points regular repeaters with dangerous aro up close (fire template) and far away (flash pulse), with even some offensive capability with double continuos damage template. I would like some of this weakness. Not all faction strength is about power pieces.

    I do. Definitely able to strike well above its weight. Like that:

     
    #676 Rejnhard, Aug 25, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2022
  17. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    I have the opposite experience, I put in the units I need to cover objectives and a couple of attack pieces then work out how to cut back without losing what I need in order to get a usable number of orders

    Quite often I find i cannot play the pieces that made me want to play Nomads or that I wanted to build my list around because if I do in short on orders or have no way to protect my lieutenant.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Without being partisan one way or another, but if the game is currently in a state where you're pretty much effed if you have to use camouflaged LTs or redundant Chain of Command to compete, then the game is in a pretty bad state of affairs.
    Those should be extra and optional tools for factions with access to them, and there's plenty of list designs that are not only Nomads that gets partially or fully invalidated if the game's letting too many factions punish their opponents so easily that they become mandatory.

    So the irony here is that a prescribed tactic for Nomads is to push Repeaters hard into the opponent's side of the table turn one and that tactic is one of the alpha strike tactics that punishes any list built with obvious LTs that're not in marker state. There are more tactics that does this, Nomads are far from the only culprit - by CB's design, they really ramped up the number of alpha strikes available in N4.

    In either case, I think at this point this is either something that CB'll have to either design away in the future or they have to start designing LTs taking this into account. I.e. maybe having specific load-outs be LT isn't the future, maybe having a unit in general be LT-capable to make LT-doppelgangers more generally available to everyone is the future. Or maybe alpha striking in general isn't as fun past a couple of games and needs to be given a chill pill (which requires specific attention to each type of alpha strike). Dunno about you guys, but it's kind of stopped being funny for me and my meta is generally not so hot on alpha striking.
    It's not only a Nomad issue, the creative constraint in list making is real for factions with access to these LTs.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Lack of streamlined profiles. Overall it's rare to find profiles in combined army that do exactly what you want them to do without paying for something else, sans the basic utility pieces (X-drones, etc). Almost everyone's got something that can do the same job for cheaper than CA - and in some circumstances, just as well. And those discounts add up.
     
  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Sorry but this is total horse shit.

    YJ is one the most trivial armies to have a safe Lt.
    Vanilla YJ is not even with Vanilla Nomads in regards to Lt. weaknesses, stop trying to perpetuate that idea.
     
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