This one is real iffy. Holoecho states "Automatic when deployed, placing up to three Holoechoes on the game table, within Coherency of at least one of the other Holoechoes, respecting the general conditions of the Deployment rules." and "Holoecho State replicates the State Tokens (Prone, Unloaded, etc.) or pieces of Equipment (TinBots, SymbioMates, etc.) that the Holoprojector bearer may have. " Holoprojector states "This piece of Equipment allows its bearers to deploy in Holoecho State when they are placed on the table." But Hidden Deployment is pretty adamant that "Until a Trooper's Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, that Trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all. " And we also know that the Echos don't actually have the skills and can't really use them (they're not troopers in this respect). Plus, Hidden Deployment doesn't have a State Token to replicate nor any specific rules for how to handle Marker states at the same time like Decoy does. Not only that, but as silly as it sounds, Hidden Deployment wouldn't have many cancellation clauses that apply to non-Troopers. So, is this interpretation correct? When deploying an Ayyar in Hidden Deplyoment, write down the real Ayyar's position (like you would for an Agema using the same skill). When the Ayyar is then revealed you are allowed to make use of the Holoprojector equipment and activate the Holoecho state, placing one Echo in the position you wrote down and two Echos in base contact with with it, noting in secret which is the real Ayyar.
Holoprojector also says "This piece of Equipment allows its bearers to deploy in Holoecho State when they are placed on the table." RAW, it does seem that it gets activated at the moment that hidden deployment is cancelled and the Ayyar placed on the table. If so, then you would place the echoes within 8" of each other, not in base contact. Do you then get to select which of the three echoes is the real one? Or do you have to select the one that was in the original hidden position? The former option would allow the Ayyar to teleport up to 16" from his hidden deployed position. Also worth noting is the hidden deployment clause "In your Deployment Phase, write down the position of your Hidden Deployment Troopers in as much detail as possible (make sure to specify whether the Trooper is in Cover, Prone, etc.) in order to show your opponent when their State is cancelled and their position revealed." So if I can place three holoechoes, but the real one has to be the one that was in the hidden spot, then my opponent can determine which one is real simply by asserting their right to be shown the written position of the hidden spot when the hidden deployment state is cancelled. Just some initial thoughts. This will be a long thread.
Hmm, interesting. Holoecho state says it happens "when deployed," holoprojector says "when placed on the table." They can't both be correct. If holoecho is correct, then you deploy the echoes when you hidden deploy the trooper. Are the echoes also hidden?
Holoecho has different activation options. The one for deployment states that you are "placing up to three Holoechoes on the game table" Hidden Deployment "allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase without placing a Model or Marker on the battlefield." Bold emphasis added to show where they are not compatible, noting that game table and battlefield should be synonymous. I'll just add that there's further strangeness to be discussed if the Echoes are in Hidden Deployment as well. Also adding that there's an outstanding question that hasn't been answered; is measuring Coherency mandatory for Fireteams or Holoecho as well?
I think thus is due to the following point on the holoecho rule "During their Active Turn, Troopers with Holoprojector may revert to Holoecho State by expending an Entire Order while outside the LoF of enemy Markers or Troopers. The player will place the other two Holoechoes in Silhouette contact with the Holoprojector bearer." Of Course this is not the active turn but I think I see the logic behind it, as you loose hidden deployment but use the holoecho, interesting to see official CB response
I Oh so want a final Anwser on this.... It's 3 (?) different way to play which are very different... 1. Note location of all the Holos and Real Model w/8" ZoC( if im reading that right..) 2. Note location of Hidden model then Place Holos and select real model 3. As above but Holos are in BtB at Deployment... Any other options I'm missing... Each one plays very differently.... And could drastically effect the Ayyar and your overall gameplay...
It would be a simple activation of the state as you would do during the States Phase or when spending an Order to activate the state. Since it is not done during deployment they can not be deployed spread out in Zone of Control.
I'm not seeing that at all. Holoecho State lists three distinct activation clauses: "automatic when deployed," at the end of the states phase, and by spending a whole order. The latter two say to place the echoes in sil contact, the first says to place them in coherency. When the Ayyar is revealed, it's not the end of the states phase and you haven't spent a whole order, so to me it seems clear that the second two activation clauses don't apply. I can't see any interpretation where the echoes go in sil contact in this scenario. If the holoecho state is activated upon revealing the Ayyar, it can only be pursuant to the first clause and the echoes go in coherency. The ability to do so would come from the Holoprojector rule which says "This piece of Equipment allows its bearers to deploy in Holoecho State when they are placed on the table" - so it's triggering the deployment clause of Holoecho, not the other two activation clauses.
Holoprojector is a Marker State When they come out of hidden deployment they appear in the Holo Echo state. Just like Camouflage you come out using the rules for deploying in that state.
I think you have to go with: - Holoprojector kicks in at deployment (the state has the correct timing, the skill doesn’t) - Hidden deployment does a “instead of placing on the table”, you record where you’re going to place them - The holo echoes get dealt with by hidden deployment because of the “respecting the general conditions of the Deployment rules” clause. They don’t need to have the skill to hidden deploy because the trooper is getting subject to the hidden deployment rules.
I guess I am trying as much as most people to make the two somewhat functional, but I'm honestly not seeing Holoprojector as being compatible with Hidden Deployment at all unless they make errata to it. Pick one or the other, though nothing prevents you from activating Holoprojector at a later stage of the game - similar to the Bokhtar Parachutist's now removed TacAware.
Putting on the table the miniature with the two active holoechoes can only and exclusively be done during the deployment during the Deployment Phase, at any other time that it is put on the table for the first time outside of that phase it is done without holoechoes and once on the table the miniature can activate the holoprojector in the usual ways (in the Status Phase or by spending an Order). Edited due to discrepancies between the Rulebook and the Wiki: I'm afraid not. Holoecho State (p. 155) does not have the «Marker» tag that they do have Camouflaged State (p. 153) or Impersonation State (p. 157).
Late to the party, but... https://infinitythewiki.com/Hidden_Deployment_State This first bullet on the effects list says that the model IS deployed but without representing it with a model or marker. So you "place" model+echos by the Holoecho state rules (automatic at Deployment), record their position without placing models/markers then you go on. When you break out of Hidden Deployment, you still retain your Echos as already cleared. And remember that Holomask+Holoecho state is still a Marker state.
I correct myself, Holoecho State does not have the «Marker» tag in the ruleboot... but it does in the Wiki.
as tox said, taking a picture* of the location of the unit count as deploying it. if the picture is taken during deployment phase; then it count as deploying during the deployment phase. therefore, when you take a picture of the unit location, you can deploy active holoecho at the same time (and you deploy them the same way: by taking a picture of their location) *or any other forms of recording the location.
It would be really useful for you to read threads before you reply to them. The whole point of this thread is that a model in the Hidden Deployment state is deployed, but isn't on the table. Those two facts are well established. The question is whether holoecho triggers when the unit is deployed, or when the unit is placed on the table. Holoecho says "when deployed," holoprojector says "when placed on the table." It's a contradiction - they can't both be correct. Hence this thread.
Thanks for the warning, I edit the message to avoid confusion that I have used "deploy" as a synonym for "put on the table" without thinking that it can cause confusion.
