No, but TAGs and other units with high armor and multiple wounds can choose to reset out of the spotlight and eat a missile, which restarts the whole active spotlight game, which is not very efficient. This is doubly true for the avatar with his super high WIP.
You Isolate the TAG first, and then Spotlight it. The Avatar is trying to Reset out on -12 MODs. Most TAGs are looking at a final WIP of 1.
A Ninja Killer hacker was at no point in the game ever a threat against a Hacker tacking its job seriously. He had enough modifiers to get rid of avarage hackers, but he did nothing more than a zero Killer hacker, or any other Killer hacker in CAMO state could not. You compare a unit who´s exceptionally good in CC and and shooting due to Mimetism and the point costs resulting out of this special skills with a unit that is focused on one purpose: Hacking. Again: A ninja is not a hacker. He is a Wip 13 BTS 0 Unit, that happens to have a Killer hacking device. And u dont compare him to a unit with equal odds (maybe said Zero, which HAPPEN to have a hacking device, or a Line infanterie, or, or, or.), u compare him to an exceptionally good hacker, with high Wip and BTS. And even more: a hacker, protected by a firewall in a linkteam, ignoring the surprise Attack. (Thats, btw, is not a hacker problem, thats a linkteam problem. But that would lead to far i´m afraid) This in addition is not a fight a lonely little ninja can take. But also: Thats way more points than the lonely little ninja, and its a damn Linkteam with one purpose in one of the best hacking factions there is. You want to kill good hackers? Take good killer hackers. Take Asuras. Or Interventors. Or Mary Problems. Maybe behind a Firewall. They are units able to kill good hackers. Or u dont play their game! Why should you try to kill a very good hacker with hacking? Do you try to shoot vs. avatar in cover without MSV with a combi-rifle in 27`` distance? I realy dont understand you there. Well, that seems different in my meta, but also: camo does not only counter hacking, it is a very mighty tool in skilled hands, no matter how "hacky" the enemy is. But at least i think we can agree here: A unit under a marker cannot be hacked, therefore does not play the hacking game. (he also does not play the jammer game, or the pheroware game, but thats just my opinion) Yes. Druze and Tsyklone sputniks. Thatss makes them "two", which are ....."some". Druze can also play the Grenade launcher game, so why bother with extra steps, and tsyklons are the units in the best hacking faction there is. Surprise surprise, Nomads are good at hacking and they have the tools to use it. And yes, with Nomads every girl and her Mum has a pitcher. Its the hacking-Nation. With tools to enable hacking. (except against camo, i guess) It seems that happens to you quite a lot. I dont think i cannot argue with that, for you repeat it like a prayer wheel. Maybe thats a very big difference in the Meta we play. I think, these allmighty, roflstomping tactic you hate so much loses a lot of impact, if you dont play obvious heavy lifters or, as i mentioned in an earlier post, an army of more or less equaly priced, avaraged units. I am not sure if you are nice and indulgend cause you think i just dont understand you, or you are so arrogant that you cannot even imagine me understanding you very well but just disagree with you. I think i go for the latter. Fun thing is: Not everyone you think is wrong cause they disagree with you, is catigorically wrong. But I like the confidence in everything you say. I am very sure it is always an adventure to have an argument with you. Why am I not surprised? Right. It is not avaidable for a lot of factions. Yes, in this point we can agree. The basic trinity is a little bit weak. Still: in my opinion burst trumps dmg. But yes, AP would be a nice addition to make it feel more.... impactful and worth to use. There are options in each and every army. If Jazz is such an amazing high value target, there are ways to get rif of her. Infiltrating, Impersinator, combar jump, Grenade Launcher, smoke, stealth, Pheroware,.... That´s very correct, but a lot of factions dont have obviouse ltn or some CoC ready to jump in. That said: Funny you mention that, with Jazz beeing part of the faction with the worst options to hide the ltn and be safe from LoL. Let´s phase it: we are walking round and round and round, I dont think we can agree here on any point except we dont agree and the tone becomes more rought by the moment. You stay with your fear of Missle launchers, impenetrable Hackers and non-hacking-CAMO-tactics, and i have fun playing the game in my wierd community without all this endgame-scenarios. Lets´s just get back to Nomad-bashing and YuJing saltyness, cause in the end: That´s it all about, isnt it?
Huh? In N3 he could take down most hackers. Bit of a glass cannon though, but you didn't have to come out of HD until it was safe. Well give every faction BTS 6-9 hacking profiles with upgrade programs then, so they can have "hacker" profiles, and remove the KHD from the ninja because it's not a hacker. It's not a fireteam problem. This kind of crap is still a problem in vanilla Nomads (not with the exact modifiers you stated) but BTS 9, for example, is far too resilient to KHDs than it used to be, and far more resilient than it should be. Not every faction has those. KHDs were supposed to be the unit that killed enemy hackers, but it's been made far too pillowfisted due to players in N3 complaining that they actually had to interact with their opponent in order to do hacking. Where's the AP HMG for hacking? It doesn't exist for most factions. It is now. But it used to be a more level playing field. Ironically now I think Haqqislam is a better hacking faction than YJ because of all the masturbatory profiles that have been thrown their way in N4. We're going to repeat it until you actually put up an argument against it. The problem, of course, is that CB is listening to the Australians who whine about the Avatar instead of people who are pointing out how degenerate the hacking game is in N4. Huh? In N3 he could take down most hackers. Bit of a glass cannon though, but you didn't have to come out of HD until it was safe. Well give every faction BTS 6-9 hacking profiles with upgrade programs then, so they can have "hacker" profiles, and remove the KHD from the ninja because it's not a hacker. It's not a fireteam problem. This kind of crap is still a problem in vanilla Nomads (not with the exact modifiers you stated) but BTS 9, for example, is far too resilient to KHDs than it used to be, and far more resilient than it should be. Not every faction has those. KHDs were supposed to be the unit that killed enemy hackers, but it's been made far too pillowfisted due to players in N3 complaining that they actually had to interact with their opponent in order to do hacking. Where's the AP HMG for hacking? It doesn't exist for most factions. It is now. But it used to be a more level playing field. Ironically now I think Haqqislam is a better hacking faction than YJ because of all the masturbatory profiles that have been thrown their way in N4. You have to actually give counterarguments to be taken seriously. Your opinion? Have you used the dice tool or some other statistical tool to come up with the math for it? And if you haven't, why should we take you seriously? Not in Sval, for example. And it's very limited in some factions, and there's not tradeoffs for setting up protected hackers like Jazz. There should be risk to using her. There is not. So no, I dispute your point. Moreover, the tool for killing hackers should be KHDs. Nomads aren't necessarily the worst - my main two factions I play, USARF and OCF, are both terrible at it too. I don't play YJ. And the hacking problem exists to a certain extent in other factions like Haqqislam. The problem is in players wanting to be able to set up a repeater network and have it be zero risk, and unfortunately CB has listened to them.
in n3, khds on any profile was so strong that they almost removed the entirety of the "hack the enemy gameplan" entirely by themselves. there was a select few models in the game that was not terrified of a khd (not a special model's khd, literally on any profile) due to how powerful redrum and its ability to ignore enemy firewalls was. like ahd were considered awful outside of specific profiles due to how weak they were to enemy khds, and hd+ was only acceptable due to white noise still being as strong as it is, the ability to hide from them via cybermask, and the need to have someone give supportware to the rems.
It also feels like some people are forgetting that most of the usable AHD in N3 had to have a marker state option to survive.
Cutting through a lot of point-by-point arguing above, I'd just like to mention that I've started using KHDs again in my NCA not because they're good at killing top-end Hackers, but because they're good at killing Skirmisher Hackers the enemy was relying on to score and for walking into the enemy's side under Cybermask so I can shoot something valuable in the face. There are better tools for both jobs, but I don't have access to them so I actually get the Locust KHD off the shelf when playing into Nomads these days. Putting up a few decent snipers to pin the Morans, clearing them with offensive pieces and forcing the opponent to actually move that Core with Jazz to score points (exposing it to non-stupidly-overpowered tools) is my usual counter these days. Pretty much this. In late N3 I'd use a Deva AHD with Lightning, a dense REM Repeater network and an EVO Hacker for rerolls to draw out enemy KHDs- even relatively experienced players were usually taken by surprise by the fact that Redrum wasn't an auto-win, even on KHD platforms as weak as Bandits. Otherwise I mostly stuck to standard HDs unless I had to take an AHD to get a Specialist into a link (like the ORC Haris).
I saw AHDs used at high level play all through N3. People avoided AHDs because they didn't want to interact, even if the interaction was fair.
Seconded. Its annoying because if you are raising the general power and utility of hacking, thats precisely when a tool like a Nullifier should be added to the game, let alone removed. And the deployable repeaters feel lazy and dismissive, like whoever made the change just didn't give a shit about Tohaa. Our "nullifier" is essentially the Taquel. He feels kind of essential against Nomads at least, which sucks because he's the same type of uninteractive gameplay that puts me off hacking. At least with him you need to close the distance I guess.
Funny thing is they took the Nullifier out because they didn't want a passive defense like that devaluing hacking and making match ups turn into hackers vs unhackables. Yet they widened the hacking power gap and didn't make sure all factions could effectively compete in it, so the ones that can't are encouraged towards other passive defenses such as camo spam and we're right back to where we started.
Yup, they wanted a situation where factions that are good at hacking (Nomads, Haqqislam, bit of CA) didn't have to risk much to aggress against the enemy, but people had to make risky moves against them.
@Hecaton your argument does not becomes more valuable if u post it twice. Yes. You are right. In everything. Consider yourself and Triumph the winner here.
Eh, the overall idea was more that hacking remains relevant in a match up and you continue to make hacking rolls during a game rather than N3 where a bunch of unhackable skirmishers are running around under repeaters not giving a fuck. The problem is the way the it shakes out is people reach towards the best defense which is for several factions, a passive shield of some sort because their active defense options just aren't viable. The idea was your hacker should feel compelled that when it moves up against an opponent, hacking them should be a viable option. Instead we wind up with many opponents just spamming passive defenses like tinbots and camo so the hacker comes up to them and goes.... hmmm should I bother dealing with the big -MODs or should I just find some sort of conventional solution like sending something with a shotgun around the corner? I think the overall idea was fine they just utterly botched the execution of it by not taking enough care and just hitting the hacking meta with a bunch of broad overarching changes rather than taking the time to fully examine everything and fine tune it.
You know I do often forget about the unfortunate timing that N4 had, probably mostly due to how little I ended up being impacted by Covid.
Disingenuously refusing to engage when people bring up counterpoints to your arguments is not good discussion. Is there a counterargument you'd even accept? Are you willing to consider the possibility you might be wrong?
Maybe that idea was there, but the "give Nomads and Haqqislam cool toys that don't allow much enemy interaction" impetus overpowered it.
absolutely incorrect. Funnily enough that kind mentality fits far better with N4 hacking, just replace KHD with HD and Redrum with oblivion If anything KHDs helped the hacking ecosystem, this thinking came from a fundamental misunderstanding on how the system worked. KHDs existed to protect your hackers from enemy hackers then allow them to operate. but people never though much past KHD kill hackers, then thought the mechanic dead and gave up trying to leverage it. Now KHDs are basically slightly more useful but far more vulnerable spec op due to getting hacker bonuses on certain missions. they cant protect anything effectively, they cant attack effectively unless they are packing upgrades (which doesn't count), leaving you with a more vulnerable specialist.If you want to give them a reason to exist bring back blackout and put on them or give them zero pain. there is only the HD now and only two programs, spotlight and oblivion, the rest may as well be lorem ipsum test given how useful it is.
