Below is the scenario: - Active player has a Su Jian and an engineer. - Su Jian is already in NWI - Engineer spends an order to heal the Su Jian. - Reactive player declares a BS Attack that targets the Su Jian (either due to Su Jian activating, or by splashing a template, doesn't matter). - The shot successfully does 2 damage to the Su Jian, and the engineer successfully heals the Su Jian. What is the outcome? 1) Su Jian is back at NWI (engineer success brings the Su Jian up to 1 STR, and 2 more damage brings the Su Jian to 2x Unconscious, and triggers NWI) 2) Su Jian is dead (engineer heals 1, shot deals 2, Su Jian takes a net of 1 damage, and dies)
I think it's fairly well established that Resolution all happens simultaneously. So the answer can't be either (a) first Unconscious is cancelled, then two wounds are dealt, so the SJ goes to NWI, or (b) first two wounds are dealt and the SJ dies, then the repair happens but there's nothing left to repair. Seems like the only way to make it work is that by cancelling the Unconscious state, the Engineer heals one wound. Simultaneously, the SJ suffers two wounds. So it takes a net loss of one wound, and since it started in the NWI state, the net -1W kills it.
Does this change if the Su Jian is just in Unconscious level 2? Engineering up to 1 would have the math be heal 2 minus 2 damage = net 0 damage?
Healing a Su Jian in Unconscious-2 doesn't heal 2 wounds, it restores the Su Jian to 1 STR and cancels the Unconscious state. Both levels of the Unconscious state are effectively "Zero Wounds"
yes, as per the Engineer rule, with a single WIP roll, they recover lost STR until they have 1 point of STR. Which means you recover as many as needed. Nothing says that Unc-2 is effectively 0 STR and they effectively only gained 1 STR putting them at 1 STR.
There is no way to apply all of the effects simultaneously, which was always the case with doctoring nwi in similar situations. If we apply them sequentially you have two options: A. The unconscious state is cancelled by the engineer, setting the cat to str 1, then it takes 2 wounds, putting it back to nwi at unc-2. B. The cat takes 2 wounds, putting it at effectively str -3, then the unconscious state is cancelled, putting it at str 1. Clearly option b is the much more sane answer and lines up with how doctor and nwi works already. Important to note that repairing an unconscious (and yes nwi is a special version of unconscious) model you don’t repair a str, you instead cancel all of its states that can be cancelled by engineer. It is not a case of +1/-2 str, but cancel unconscious/-2 str.
are you saying that when you doctor up an Unc model you just "repair the Unc state", really ?? Eng says : Doc says : Both rules talks about recovering STR/W when cancelling the state. You might be getting confused with the other potential effect of Engineer, which is to repair all reparable states (excluding Unc) :
Source for that? I'm pretty sure that if a model in NWI takes 4 wounds and is simultaneously doctored, it winds up dead, not healed. Besides, if you did it sequentially per B, you the model would first lose more STR than it can and enter the Dead state, then you would try to apply Doctor to cancel the Unconscious state but there would be no Unconscious to cancel because the trooper would already be Dead. Good question. I think yes, it would be net 0 damage and remain at Unconscious level 2. It's the only way to simultaneously apply "lose two wounds" and "cancel Unconscious," by interpreting "cancel Unconscious" to mean "regain sufficient wounds to cancel Unconscious (2 in this case)"
Thinking about this further. Unconscious isn't an independent state that gets applied directly. There's no skill or piece of equipment that has an Effect of putting a trooper into the Unconscious state. Rather, "If the value of the Wounds/STR Attribute of a Trooper reaches 0, then that Trooper enters the Unconscious state." Unconscious is a consequence of having 0 remaining wounds/STR (and not being in another state such as NWI). It's an indirect effect of skills and equipment that cause wounds. So, when Engineer says that it "cancels the Unconscious state," it must mean that it restores sufficient STR so that the trooper is no longer Unconscious. Otherwise, if the state by itself was cancelled but the trooper still had 0 STR, it would instantly return to being Unconscious. Likewise, Remote Presence says "When the Trooper loses the last point of their STR Attribute, they enter Unconscious State like any other Trooper would. However, if the Trooper receives damage again and loses one further STR point, it does not enter Dead State as usual, but instead enters a second level of Unconscious State" [emphasis added]. In other words, being Unconscious is equivalent to having 0 Wounds/STR, and being Unconscious Level 2 is equivalent to having -1 STR (having "lost one further STR point"). Consequently, "cancelling the Unconscious Level 2" state is accomplished by restoring two STR points.
Did we ever get an answer to what happens if you try to engineer off Targeted but get hacked by Spotlight again at the same time?
No, they have not clarified simultaneously removing an effect and opponent applying the same during the same order. Community reading is that an Engineer can't remove a state that does not yet exist - in essence that when you declare the Engineer skill you target both the trooper and the states that trooper has for removal.
