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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Su Jian is great. But if it were Nomad there would be at least one more option, probably AVA2 and cheaper.

    I'm not complaining about Evaders. I just want them for Yu Jing. Yu Jing had Haidao and Zhencha first and then comes along the Evader and Sombra which are pretty much the same but kicked up a few notches for almost the same price. Why are Sombra and Zhencha are both ARM3, 1 Wound+NWI, but for some reason Sombra are un-hackable MI, while Zhencha are hackable HI? Sombra even have BTS 6. Yes they have FD instead of Infiltration but that doesn't mean much when you have the weapons they have.
     
    #561 Space Ranger, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Okay so you can't read then.
     
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  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    God the YJ posters make me cringe so hard, it's honestly hard to believe it's not satire sometimes.

    It's almost as if the factions had different stuff and because they're different factions. Nomad doesn't have 5 points regular orders either. Maybe we should give YJ an Evader and give Nomads some Kuang Shi. Why not make every faction the same?

    If the average YJ player spent as much time figure out how to improve with what YJ has that makes them good as they spend complaining about what they're "missing", they wouldn't need to complain as much, lol.
     
  4. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    Hey there is a bunch of positive YJ players, we just migrated to greener pastures where it is okay to like things.
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The rare unicorn YJ posters.
     
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  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I'm imagining if Nomads had something really cool that they don't have it would be even cooler than the really unique cool one I do have, and I'm angry about it.

    The thread.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Your arguments are impossible to take seriously.
     
  8. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    The "Nomads take too much design space" seems like a weird argument. N4 was huge for a lot of factions. The recent morat design change had a profound effect on the sectorial that allows different playstyles than before. The have a lot of flexibility and do something different. They feel like CB took time to make them different

    While people complain about Military Orders, their revision was very significant. They got new line troops, unique mid-field skirmishers, HI bikes, HI drop troops, a Holomasked LT, and multiple AP HMG options to get out of the deployment zone. While not every one likes the change, it was a change.

    Pano, on general feels like it has changed a lot. Vanilla is the best it has been for awhile. I also think Winterforce is underrated. Vargar are one of the most unique profiles in the game and the box set is basically the perfect Haris.

    Sure Corregidor has gotten a lot of stuff, but so has everyone else. I just wish people appreciated it.

    Here is hoping that Operation: Blackwind give Hassassins and Steel Phalanx continues to share the love.
     
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    We can complain about the army we think someone else has, and the army we think we have, or we can enjoy what we have and not worry about things outside of our control.
     
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  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Again I'm not complaining. I'm happy for nomads. I'm jealous.

    A bit of a false equivalence there. Since it's actually a minimum 18pts and .5 swc. With the controller. I'd rather have two 10pt Jaguar who throw smoke better than CG can shoot it. I'll also take those morlocks that are just as good as Shaolin but get metachemistry and better CCWs on top of that.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, 6.6 points per regular orders for a package of 5 orders. My argument still stands.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    CB can and does change things with respect to fan input.

    Moreover, psychologically healthy people have an ability to determine fairness; the thing that's pointed out in the first post of this thread is an *unfair* situation.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So Military Orders lost some, gained some, and in general is probably in a better place now than it was before.

    Nomads just gain, gain, gain, is the difference.
     
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  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is in any reasonable position to complain about YJ's position on the totem pole at the moment. Vanilla YJ is extremely potent, and while not on the tier of CA and Nomads, they're really not far behind. And the Fireteam update was an enormous boon to ISS and WB (I don't really get IA, so I'm not going to comment on that one). Not only are those two sectorials in a very playable state now, they're now both distinct from vanilla in fun and meaningful ways. We're no longer stuck with a bunch of vanilla(-) sectorials. It's a far cry from the horribly half baked state those two factions were in at the start of N4.

    The days of the Woe is (The Glorious State Empire) are over, and while the Uprising certainly may not be forgotten, the wounds could definitely be considered healed. In terms of raw power, the major issues facing YJ at the moment tend to lean more towards internal balance problems (Bao, Crane, overabundance of redundant basic HI, etc.), rather than any outward weakness or feature incompleteness, and any conceptual deficiencies (pitchers, HD+, etc.) facing YJ or any of its sectorials lean towards being intentional and defining to the faction.

    The issue here comes when Nomads get a lot of units that start feeling very YJ+. In what seem to be an ever increasing number of facets. Granted, the nature of Infinity's inter-faction balance and overall mechanics of unit design pushes for increasing levels of homogeniety across factions as new units are introduced, but a lot of toys that keep getting introduced to Nomads seem to feel a little too on the ball with a lot of our own. And more importantly, for a system where units are supposed to be built and balanced around a somewhat consistent point formula, a lot of these values really just don't seem to add up anymore in these comparisons. Nomads aren't the only offender in this regard, but they're definitely the worst of it. I get that Yu Jing gets the Kuang Shi(ISS, Vanilla)/Monk(WB) order battery to compensate for the costs of a lot of their troops, but even then, the 'taxes' we pay are usually fairly transparent and usually come with quirky niche toolbox functionality to make up the difference. But then you compare the Gator to the Guijia (or just the NCO cost in comparison to the O12 Zeta), and things just really don't add up. It's the transparency that used to be inherent to the system that is being lost that is the problem, and that's what ends up coming across as distasteful favouritism.
     
    #574 Weathercock, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  15. SpectralOwl

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    Most of us know very well that YJ has a selection of useful and unique units that leave Vanilla YJ comfortably in the second tier of factions overall, with at least one good-to-great option in all areas considered relevant to ITS play save Hacking, where they're merely competent. A lot of the complaining springs from two places. Firstly, YJ very rarely has even two really solid options for the same job outside its core HI roles, suffering from some of the worst internal balance issues in the game and leading to repetitiveness in lists at all levels of play- Guilangs are emblematic of this; you'll almost never see a YJ list without at least one. Secondly, outside its most exceptional units (pretty much just the Su Jian and Kuang Shi) it's a faction that is particularly vulnerable to having its toes stepped on since its design space is incredibly narrow since it lost the CC crown and it doesn't even stand out for toolbox options since nearly every faction has Characters that steal its limelight.

    This second point is particularly relevant here because Nomads are the other mid-tech faction of Infinity, using low-tech tricks and skills alongside the full spectrum of standard equipment for a versatile playstyle that lets them target an opponent's weakneses. It's very easy for one or two profiles to break the balance between such close neighbours.
     
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So you're going to just ignore the complaint about the fact that Nomads keep breaking the points cost formula for no reason?

    Or do you find that acceptable and that's why you don't want to talk about it?

    Don't get me wrong, there are definitely times when breaking the cost formula is appropriate. Teutons are an example, benefiting from an aggressive extra points cut helps offset the fact that a large portion of the army is carrying situational bloat gear and skills. Nomads really aren't in the same situation though where they should be cheating points on things like Gators and Evaders.
     
    #576 Triumph, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
  17. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Could you please link me to the point cost formula? So we can pull out the fact that a ridiculous amount of profiles in every faction cheats it in some way or another?

    Cheating the point formula is a way to push profiles into lists more often in a given faction, see how HB can afford to spam impersonators because they don't cost SWC like everything else.

    CB has always cheated on the point formula to make some stuff stand out, I don't have an issue with it personally.

    How many points do they actually save on Gator and Evaders respectively?

    Cross-faction point formula are completely irrelevant, what matters is that what they can field as a whole and how it fares versus the rest. Nomads don't have the cheap regular troopers that cheat the formula (Kuang Shi, Netrod, Ikadron), so it ends up evening out mostly.
     
  18. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you for the most part. They do cheat themselves and factions do need to be looked holistically. However there's a bad perception when one faction gets something close to another and is better and cheaper. Holistically or not. Perception's might be wrong, but there you go.

    I think the points on those have already been mentioned. They are cheaper than their equivalents and have some better skills, weapons, and equipment. Sure, they shouldn't be compared to others but again, perception matters.

    Um... as I mentioned previously, Nomads/Corregidor has Jaguars, 10pts, AVA 4/5, regular order, for a pretty good smoke chucker. I have yet to see anyone use them for anything other than throwing smoke. Your example of Ikadron are 9pts and AVA2. Jaguars even have the ability to make a Haris to get an extra burst to that smoke! Honestly though 1 McMurrough is better than three Jaguars.

    Also, now Bakunin has the ability to make Morlocks regular with a Taskmaster. I faced that a few weeks ago and it's pretty powerful. A Haris and a Duo of them. That's three 6pt regular orders. Giving the HMG and Redfury an extra burst and fueling the Vostok and Chimera with cheap orders.
     
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  19. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Well, we know that the Zeta pays 4 points and .5 SWC for NCO. The Gator, being part of the faction known for its poor leadership structure, then receives a 2 point and .5 SWC discount on that rule alone.

    As for other elements of its point cost, disregarding NCO, the closest unit for comparison would be the Guijia. Both troopers possess very similar statlines.
    In CC, the Gator's CC attack (-3) looks to have been removed from it's original reveal (the price was not changed), although the built in NBW and CC20 still makes it tough to assail with traditional melee anti-TAG measures. Still, because of the removal of that abusive MA1+ combination, the Guijia does come out on top as a CC combatant.
    Other major differences include the Guijia's Super Jump and the Gator's hacking ECM, and the slightly different template weapon loadouts.

    Ultimately, I'd consider most of these differences to be largely a wash. The Gator's improved hacking defense probably more generally useful, but I know you can do some really funky stuff with superjump.

    But where things get weird is that for units so similar, the Gator is 74 and the Guijia 81. Something doesn't add up, and 7 (9 on the NCO) is a lot of points.
     
    #579 Weathercock, Jun 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I can't post a breakdown of everything I have because apparently that's against forum rules, actually not joking there. Don't ask me why I was just as surprised as you are when I was told. However here's a breakdown to the Evader specifically which is apparently just toeing the line on what's acceptable to post here.

    As for the Gator just look at any of the other NCO TAGs, you can clearly see it's paying a different cost. For no reason the Gator is paying the Infantry NCO cost.

    Like I said I agree, sometimes it's appropriate. However, is it actually appropriate for Nomads to be pushing cuts on HI and TAGs? I don't think it is, most people don't either. That's not their wheelhouse. Cheap hackers, skirmishers, asymmetric fighters, weird shit like Puppets? That's Nomad through and through. HI that make HI from high tech factions look crap? Bigger discount on TAG skills like NCO that Pan-O doesn't get? That's not what they're supposed to be pushing.

    The Evaders don't need a bonus points cut, they're already top notch as it is. You know what CJC model needs that points cut to get him on the table? The Intruder.
     
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