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Vanilladuo

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by QueensGambit, Mar 26, 2022.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Ran this today in the Armory, just because I could. I wouldn't call it a good list, but I would call it a list in which an Asawira and a Namurr can form a fireteam. And after all, isn't that what really matters?

    Armory
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    NAMURR (Tactical Awareness) Breaker Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 41)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14)
    DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
    DIGGER Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon(+1B). (0 | 14)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    KRAKOT RENEGADE Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (0 | 14)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (0 | 14)
    SHAYTANIYAH REMOTE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    4 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Turn one, the Asawira does some murder and becomes impetuous. Turn 2, he duos with the Namurr, de-impetuouses, and does more murder. Then they both suppress. Turn 3: duo, de-impetuous, murder, suppress. Both of them do that thing Asawiras and Namurrs do where they just sit in the objective room and never, ever die.

    If the Namurr had gone down, the Rafiq was ready to run up and take a turn calming the angry Asawira.
     
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  2. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Played Capture & Protect today vs Shock Army.

    Ran something similar to my usual list (Asawira, Barids, Knauf, Daylami, Ghazi, Zuleyka, Nadhir etc.). I removed the Mukhtar Red Fury for a Namurr with Tac Aware.

    Game was a bit non-representative because it took a Liberto 5 orders to kill a Peacemaker, and it took his Bounty Hunter half a turn to kill my Bounty Hunter. So, some very strange rolls. However, one thing I noticed was the Namurr really helps the Asawira out. Vs the Auxbot with the flamethrower the Namurr was able to just boldly walk forwards and use the total immunity to clear a path for the Asawira to then engage targets. The Asawira struggles to maneuver in tight areas, because even with stealth it can get bogged down by hackers and flamethrowers. The Namurr helps here tremendously by being unhackable and immune.

    I'm not 100% sold on swapping out a really strong gunfighter (Mukhtar red fury), for a utility piece / specialist (Namurr tac aware), but it absolutely did some work in the game. Moving the duo team with a tac aware order felt extremely good though. Very, very efficient.
     
  3. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Today I tested the following:

    upload_2022-3-28_17-43-38.png

    Asawira + Rafiq in a duo.

    I played vs Ikari on Annihilation. (Not the best list for Annihilation but I just wanted to test a new list).

    Ikari player brought a Tanko missile in a core with Keisotsu, a lone Karakuri, a haris with Druze hackers + Digger (cool new fireteam), Yojimbo, Engineer, Lu Duan.

    I didn't use the Asawira + Rafiq too much but I spent a long time theory-crafting it and analysing the movements in the game to see how it could have contributed. A few thoughts:

    1. It obviously cancels the Asawira's frenzy (we've discussed this). Wasn't relevant in-game though.
    2. In-game the Rafiq has a repeater which was really relevant because it pushed enemy hackers away from the Asawira. My opponent was wary of its presence. Which was great because it helped to diminish one weakness of the Asa (hackers running up to it).
    3. The Rafiq gave me a throwaway troop with templates, which I could use to clear areas for the Asawira. This didn't come up, but at one point in my game yesterday there was a Peacemaker blocking a door that I killed with a Liberto. If I was playing this duo, I'd just sacrifice the Rafiq so the Asa could move safely. And in today's game there was a point where a koala was deployed. Again I could have just thrown the Rafiq at it to keep the costly Asa safe. A lot of times in-games I just want something to go and trade with templates so my Asawira can guarantee it stays on 2W. The Rafiq does this.
    4. The Rafiq is a specialist, which is nice.
    5. The Asawira isn't amazing at discovering camouflage, and doesn't really want to get into trading games with chain rifles because it's just too expensive. The Rafiq is great at discovering and you don't really care if it dies to a chain rifle.
    So whilst I didn't get to use the full functionality today I really like the idea of it, and I got to see 1 or 2 applications in-game, which was nice.
     
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  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'd add that the Rafiq wants to be in the midfield anyway to use Sensor, so should be happy tagging along with the Asawira. No need to Discover a skirmisher and risk a template hit - just Sensor from outside LoF. Then send the Asawira around the corner to kill it.

    Not relevant to your list, but if you have a Shaytaniyah then the Rafiq becomes even better at dealing with hard-to-reach skirmishers. Once you're in Sensor range, you're also in repeater range for spotlight+rain of fire.
     
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  5. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Have played the rafiq + asawira duo maybe 5 or 6 times now? A reasonable number. It's not a massive amount of game, but not nothing either.
    I think on balance it's actually a really interesting list choice.

    In some games the duo does nothing particularly special and the 14 points I spent on the rafiq could have been something better like a krakot or digger. For example, the other day I went up against a white banner list and the rafiq died whilst throwing out a template to stop some monks in a haris. A digger could have done that with a larger template and probably survived due to the ARM3 and 2W.
    In other games the rafiq tags along with the asawira and does something absurdly useful like discovers a marker on a 19. And sometimes, if you push up with the asawira, you meet a peacemaker or something and you want to throw the rafiq in front of the flamethrower, before moving the asawira on safely. (You could argue a digger does this, but the problem is that it won't be moving up with the asawira simultaneously, so it's not actually the same at all).

    So I feel like my lists are better/worse with the asawira + rafiq duo. Worse because there are other troops of a higher quality that I'd usually be playing in that 14 point slot. But better because every now and again the rafiq rounds off a rough edge the list would otherwise have.
    I'm not totally sold on the idea. But I'm not going to cut it from my list either.

    I'm also considering a mukhtar MSV2 + asawira temporary duo. Start the game with them together and then with the first order you activate both and just move them in opposite directions. You get one or two activations of both (depending on coherency), and then break it afterwards. Remember fireteams only check coherency at the end of an order - so your asawira and mukhtar could end up 12" apart by the end of their first move (both move 6" in opposite directions), and still get the second move too.
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    @HeadChime you were running a lot of solo Asawira before. Do you find the Frenzy-preventing effect of the duo to be making a difference?
     
  7. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Doesn't the presence of an FTO option require it's use for a fire team?
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Either Rafiq can duo in vanilla, if that's what you're asking.

    Only the FTO option can join, for example, an Armored Assault fireteam in Ramah.
     
  9. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Mildly. I usually don't bring out the asawira till t2 anyway, so the rafiq is really just stopping frenzy on opponent's t2 or t3 (depending on if you played first or second). Obviously more impact if you played first because then you stop frenzy on opponent's t2 and their t3. Having said that I've found myself using the rafiq quite sacrificially. Almost as a 14 point "sacrifice this unit to kill a flamethrower or repeater" type unit. It's almost like it's 14 points of get-out-of-jail-free for the asawira. Which I really like.

    In sectorials it is usually written as such but in vanilla it merely states that the rafiq can form the duo, not the rafiq fto. Vanilla is blessed I guess.
     
    #9 HeadChime, Apr 9, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
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  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm finding myself liking the idea of Asawira + Rafiq for narrative reasons as well, which is weird for me since narrative doesn't usually impact my play decisions at all. But I just really like the Asawira and his sidekick chickenbot. Very Star Wars.

    If we're using the Rafiq as a sacrificial piece, I might want to save 2 points by using an ABH instead... but I just don't like the idea of the heavily armored hero Asawira having a human to follow him around and throw himself onto flamethrowers to protect him.

    Similarly, I ran Namurr Spitfire + Asawira Doctor BSG in Looting and Sabotaging yesterday, which seems like a reasonable way to push through to the objective. But, it felt super weird having the lightly armored Namurr doing all the work while being followed around by a dude who, despite heavy armor and superior skills and stats, was just there to provide medical support. Like the opposite of the usual heavily armored fighter supported by lightly armored doctor. It just seemed bizarre.
     
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  11. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely considered it too but ABHs aren't specialists. Honestly if there was a CSU type equivalent (11 point specialist with template weapon) in Haqq then that's what I'd pick. The rafiq and miranda ashcroft are actually the cheapest duo-able specialists.
     
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  12. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Ah. I wasn't sure if that was meant to be a global restriction or needed to be spelled out at each instance.
     
  13. Ankaa

    Ankaa Well-Known Member

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    I think a very compelling case has been made for the Asawira+Rafiq Duo and I will 100% be trying it in my next vanilla list. On a similar note what are people's thoughts regarding the Shakush+Kaplan engineer duo?

    It's a similar idea of big guns with a specialist friend and while admittedly it's an expensive gimmick having an engineer within arms reach to repair the Shakush seems so good on paper. The Kaplan isn't even a terrible gunfighter in it's own right with BS 12 and Mimetism although templates will still mess you up.
     
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Personally I don't like to Engineer a non-remote-presence TAG, but some like to gamble more than I.

    In addition to the high points cost (compared to a Najarrun or Monstrucker with a Nasmat), you also lose deployment flexibility since there are more downsides to keeping the Shakush as your reserve (same thing with the Asawira+Rafiq, but there there are more advantages weighing in favour).
     
  15. Muzzya

    Muzzya Member

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    What do you prefer asawira (ap spit) or namur (spit) in vanilla?
    at first glance asawira is much better, at second glance too))

    But namur is more mobile, non hackable, having charge, better template and best ccw. So, Namur is able to take box and hide it in roof, able to stop tag, heavy link and etc.

    In other words asawira is better in shooting for sure, other purpose can be done by namur better.
     
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I like the Asawira + Rafiq duo for that reason. The Rafiq fills in a lot of gaps for the Asawira - pushes buttons, has a good template, even provides a bit of hacking defense with the repeater. Sensor is a bonus. It can't hide on a roof with a supply box, but it can run it to your backline with 6-4 MOV.

    I've run the Namurr from time to time in specific missions, like Looting and Sabotaging for the D-Charges or The Armory for the survivability in the room. But even then it's always been duoed with an Asawira :-)

    The biggest argument I see in favour of the Namurr is its non-hackability (it's even highly resistant to guided missiles, which is a big deal), but in practice I don't often see my Asawira get hacked. Possibly because, having learned from @HeadChime , I tend to bring the Asawira out on turn 2.
     
  17. Muzzya

    Muzzya Member

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    My main atacker is Mukhtar. There is Khauf in roster usually.
    So, asawira and namur is quite expensive and i need to make a choice.
    I've tried Asa + Sensor bot, and you are right, to many tries to be hacked :) Plus bot has big base which is not comfortable to run it.
    Asawira would be best with no choice in case if has DA weapon at least, not to mention d-charges
     
  18. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Fair enough. I think I like both the Asawira and the Mukhtar better than the Namurr for a midfield gunner. I stopped bringing the Mukhtar because I got sick of DAM 13 plinking off everything, but it's great for winning face-to-face rolls. Asawira is great for doing damage. Whereas a BS 13 normal ammo spitfire with no mods doesn't feel like enough for a main midfield gun.

    If you're already bringing the Mukhtar then the Namurr as a secondary piece makes more sense to me. I guess I'd say: always bring either Asawira or Mukhtar. Once you have one of those, optionally bring Namurr as well.
     
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  19. Muzzya

    Muzzya Member

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    Emmmm... in my opinion mukhtar and asawira are for different targets.
    mukhtar is the best to hunt for camo and LI units (thanks for shock ammo and MSV2), plus Mim-6 is also can be aimed. While asawira is great to crackle armor without any mods and fight in close combat.
    If you do not take mukhtar you miss out on having combo smoke + msv. Moreover you can make mission for sensor+aro. IMHO Mukhtar can be missed))
     
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  20. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    In my local Meta I have a player who begin the list placing both Mukhtar (full vainilla ava), but because we have to face usually a lot of camo markers and so, but the good thing is that you aren't restricted to play this. Vainilla have right now a bunch of viable duos, which can be tunned to your playstyle or mission requierement. I'm a big fan of the Namur plus Asawira Doctor.
     
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