Hi everyone, I just wanted to confirm - because the Symbiomate provides Total Immunity they are not expended if they are the target of a Flash Pulse? ► The SymbioMate must be used when the Trooper is forced to make a Saving Roll. Symbiomate provides Total Immunity. Total Immunity "The Trooper is completely immune to Weapons or Ammunitions with the Non-Lethal Trait, not suffering their effects, and not requiring a Saving Roll or Guts Roll. (See FAQs & Errata. For Plasma, Sepsitor.)" Symbiomate "► When a Trooper with a SymbioMate is forced to make any Saving Rolls, they will perform those Saving Rolls with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks received by the user—or weapon or rule requiring any Saving Rolls—during the same Order will also apply the ARM and BTS values of 9, and the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. Against Comms Attacks, players will apply the ARM and BTS values of 9 but not the Immunity (Total) Special Skill." So.... the symbiomate is not expended if a unit with a symbiomate is flash pulsed?
I'm not sure about that, but suffering an attack from a Flash Pulse usually means that you are forced to make a Saving Roll. So, you spend the Symbiomate after receiving the hit but it goes puff without doing anything because it also provides you with Total Immunity and thus the attack is ignored.
No, other way around https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/n4-questions-answered.39595/#post-401651 FAQ says Symbiomates aren't used if there's no save made.
I'm not sure I'm undertanding what I'm reading in the link you provided, but a Flash Pulse is not a Comms Attack. So, it means that you are forced to make the save roll applying an ARM and BTS value of 9 and Total Immunity, which then negates the Attack. But the Symbiomate is spent.
Correct, the SymbioMate is not used as it is a non-lethal weapon attack. As you have indicated for Immunity (Total): The Trooper is completely immune to Weapons or Ammunitions with the Non-Lethal Trait, not suffering their effects, and not requiring a Saving Roll or Guts Roll. If no roll is required, the SymbioMate is not used.
Ty for the reply, in another forum - it was described to me as: The Symbiomate does not provide total immunity to the model - it just provides total immunity for the expenditure. So theoretically it would have to expend the symbiomate to gain total immunity.
Yes. The way to play it that they told you on that other forum is how many people have been playing the SymbioMate, but nowhere does it say «when the SymbioMate is used, the troop obtains Immunity (Total)»what SymbioMate says is that «it provides the Immunity (Total) Special Skill»Plus a value of 9 to ARM and BTS. So, if the attack is non-lethal, the trooper ignores its effects without requiring a roll of any kind, so the SymbioMate is not used. If the attack is not non-lethal, the ammunition is considered normal (N) and the appropriate roll is made (with the values provided by the SymbioMate). Having made a roll, the SymbioMate is considered used.
This reading would imply that you can use the SymbioMate continually to gain Total Immunity - in other words that the skill's requirements only apply to one of three bullet points. I don't think that will logically parse. REQUIREMENTS • The SymbioMate must be used when the Trooper is forced to make a Saving Roll. EFFECTS • A SymbioMate provides its user with ARM and BTS values of 9 replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user's Unit Profile and it also provides the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. In addition, the SymbioMate is also used and applied against Comms Attacks. • When a Trooper with a SymbioMate is forced to make any Saving Rolls, she will perform those Saving Rolls with an Attribute value of 9, applying the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. Any other successful Attacks received by the user–or weapon or rule requiring any Saving Rolls–during the same Order will also apply the ARM and BTS values of 9, and the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. Against Comms Attacks, apply the ARM and BTS values of 9 but not the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. • This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used. As you can see, there's no extra information that suggests either effect is working continuously without using the equipment, in other words you have to use the equipment in order to get the effects of the equipment and using the equipment for the effects will also grant the effect that the equipment will be removed at the end of that order. What the FAQ that Triumph indirectly linked to says is that Spotlight will not force the equipment to be activated since it will not fulfil the requirements. Hence you may not use SymbioMate versus Spotlight, the equipment activation will fail and the effects will not be applied.
It's in the Example 2 Not being forced to take a Saving Roll, doesn't expend the Symbiomate. Not expending the Symbiomate and benefitting of Immuity(Total) means that YES, you REALLY have ARM 9, BTS 9 and Immunity (Total) as long as you don't roll a Saving Roll.
I agree with you, that was my reasoning: the REQUIREMENT is that it must be used when making a saving roll. Then, you apply the EFFECTS. As the Flash Pulse usually forces a saving roll, you have to use it to gain the effect and gain Total Immunity. Still, I understand that the other reading (just having it assigned provides ARM/BTS 9 and Total Immunity) makes sense as it is written, and I would appreciate a clearer FAQ.
You need to use the SymbioMate to benefit from the Effects. The requirements ot use the SymbioMate is to be affected by any weapon or rule that requires a Saving Roll. If you are hit by a Flash Pulse, you will be required to do a Saving Roll The SymbioMate will be used and grant you its effect, namely Total Immunity Total Immunity will render you immune to the Flash Pulse, and you won't need to do a Saving Roll You either use the SymbioMate and get the effect, or you don't use it. (The game states decide those, you obviously don't have to choose). You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. There is also a crystal clear example at the bottom of the SymbioMate page (SymbioMate Game Example-2), it is using PARA ammunition in the example, but those would work exactly the same way. https://infinitythewiki.com/SymbioMate If the Sakiel had suffered a successful Attack with a weapon loaded with PARA Ammunition, and with the Non-Lethal Trait, he will not make the Saving Roll, thanks to the Immunity (Total) Special Skill. However, his player must remove the SymbioMate from the game table at the end of that Order.
Are you purposefully not quoting the entire thing? That example clearly states that they're removing the SymbioMate, implying that it's been used. If the trooper had baseline Total Immunity, they would not have been required to make a Saving Roll and they would not have had to remove their SymbioMate. The reason they have Total Immunity and don't need to make one is because they made use of the SymbioMate.
I got a bit confused by this as well; in the updated rules annex the last sentence about removing the SymbioMate in example 2 has been removed
@Diphoration I think you need to update your Annex, because: Not rolling a Saving Roll does not remove the bug
Regardless of the example, I still don't see how you're not using the SymbioMate to get its effect. The wording is pretty clear from the rule that you use your SymbioMate when force to do a roll, which then gives you Total Immunity. The annex change is weird, I really wish CB would comment on the changes instead of letting us try to dig and figure everything out.
Arguably the example hasn't changed meaning. You're interpreting the removal of a line to mean that the information in that line is no longer valid, but these are rules and are meant to be read as they are, not as they were. The line in question says that in the previous situation Total Immunity will cause the Sakiel not to make saving rolls, but this line does not alter any other part of the paragraph above, it only clarifies what happens with Para which doesn't use ARM or BTS. It doesn't provide any additional information on the 'mates status that isn't written in the paragraph above. That isn't what the example says, and you've confused what a skill's requirements mean and what the FAQ says. The rule says you have to use the bug if you have to make a saving throw. Para forces you to make a saving throw. Total Immunity activates and prevents a save from being made. Bug says it is removed if used. The FAQ entry says that Spotlight doesn't trigger the use of the bug, it doesn't say that you don't remove the bug. The key here is that you remove the bug if you use it not if you make the saving throw. Making a saving throw is the requirement to be allowed to use it.
I think it's plenty clear that you get the effect when it's used. Every lines are written with that in mind, the text above the requirements are also written with that in mind. I think both interpretation could be argued with RAW to some extent. (Though I think the interpretation where you keep the mate is completely ridiculous) You don't get to have the effect of a skill without first meeting the requirements. I think RAI is crystal clear.
Maybe for you, as you can see in this thread, not for others. If the "creators" grant us the priceless gift of their presence, then we all would know what they had in mind when they created the rule and it will be clear to everyone.
