I agree that the OG Sgts were not a good choice to merge, because they were at least three different distinct units rolled into one. But between Crosiers and current Sergents, we simply get Line Trooper that does all the things, other line trooper that does less things, and auxilia type bot trooper. You could easily turn this into either one combined profile in the style of early order sergents, or Crosier line troopers and Sergents with bots. Though honestly I feel that second one is still pretty unnecessary when Crosiers with bots work fine. Its easy to state that a unit should be better or do a better thing, but its not always necessary. Sometimes the best thing for a unit is for it to die and be a cheap funeral.
It was a problem back in the past, this is true, but it was because we had 3 kind of profiles which made a lot of weird questions about possible interactions: "infiltrators, specialist, fireteams..." it was a thing more of the "wording" used than any other. Now, with the "infiltrator profiles" splitted they will no issues at all. Having regulars profiles with "specialist ones with auxbot as the OS have" isn't an issue, it wouldn't be the first troup with this kind of setting, take a look on Devas. Crosiers profile's are a subset of the "regular old OS profiles" in terms of equipment, with a little downgrade in some attributes to make cheaper and more consistent with the "Pano-design" of having WILL 12 in "line-base-troupes" instead of 13. This is something I can "buy", adding a new troupe instead of changing the "old one", but it is too obvious that the OS profiles preserved are exactly the ones "within the OS box" and I guess the existence of this box is why we are still talking about OS as "a thing", not a reason of "specific game design/function" for the OS profile. OS are still a thing, if I have to bet, because "box-sales". I can live with both units like they are now, I only think it will be easier for players to have one profile, what we could loose in terms of "game variety or choices" it will be little in comparison of the simplicity we could win. Maybe when the Living Rulebook become a true thing with changes fast enough to be noticed, we will see a time when "fireteams changes on MO" make sense of this "profiles organization".
The unit fills up the role of an elite LI unit something MO needs, and has more function that be an Auxbot unit and a decent cheap hacker in an army that desperately needs one. Croziers are a cheap LI unit MO again desperately needs but they do not fill or overlap the Order Sergeants niche, I will agree OS need more to make them more functional in their role of an in between specialist unit that adds to the list and to the fireteam even if they do not add composition bonuses. The question should not be and never be "meh they are expensive, lets hyper optimize the list by removing options and functionality" the question should always be "Ok this unit is supposed to fill this role, and it short of kind of does it, but not really, how can it be improved?" There are many options I can think of for Order Sergeants, to expand their functionality, one could make them veterans to make them function as the safeguard for the inevitable Loss of Lieutenant MO have, or give them Tinbots with skills to act as mixed Fireteam boosters, or give them more specialized equipment and weapons to cover more specialized roles than what they do now.
Eh? Debate of why Crosiers needed to exist in the first place instead of just releasing alternative Order Sergeant sculpts not withstanding, Order Sergeants are already playable. They're pretty much a go to for a mixed Teuton link Haris, Core, or both. The HRL profile is a better throwaway ARO piece than the Crosier MSR, it's cheaper and has the Assault pistol as a backup for shit that tries to sneak in close. The Hacker costs more than a standard line infantry hacker, but it's also above the average line infantry hacker packing a BTS stat. It also pairs well with Teutons because they give it a tinbot firewall. With AVA2 peacemakers presenting a forward repeater network an Order Sergeant hacker hiding in a Teuton link as a defensive tool is quite useful to stall for time, and you can overlay Trinitarians with DTWs as an extra trap inside this defensive network.
WTF are you smoking. OS have no use except for Auxbot profile (mind the singular used here). Even MSV2 Spitfire was taken from them xD Also: how the heck is OS Hacking Device usefull or needed by MO ? I don't want to spoil things for you, but in N4 Fairy Dust is only available on EVO hacking devices (and OS do not have such upgrade xD). Sure one could do a lot of things. But CB decided otherwise and actually did put a lot of effort to: 1) Create redundant Crosiers xD 2) Take away non-Trinitaries profiles from OS 3) Carefully crafted fireteams in a way that OS only make sense if you want to take Buleeter into Haris. They (OS) have no role nor purpose in any other scenario. Even that silly OS hacker is not taken if you can afford Wildcard Fersen or Santiago KHD (hehe Tinbot), or you just take damn cheap Crosier Paramedic with tons more use. OS Hacker in team is liability, becouse he will be hunted and have his brain melted by any of SK hacker present in mid-field. This is exactly the purpose of this thread and how without purpose OS are right now. And this is after "yet another MO rework". On top of problems with Infirmer and general MO fireteam "mess".
Would separating out the current "Military Orders" fireteam to a "Crosier" fireteam (Can add, KC, BF, Curator) and a "New Military Orders" fireteam (OS or TK base, can add Curator, Infirmarer, Bulleteer) that replaces the current "Order Sgt" fireteam reduce peoples current complaints about Order sergeants?
Well, how many Sectorials have a 10-11 point rifle armed Linetrooper and a 13-15 point Rifle armed Linetrooper? OS aren't interesting and have very boring options these days. I'd much prefer axing them and getting Teutons/Magister/old Montesa/old KothS back than "making them work" in Military Orders. "More non Lt linetroper choices" is the last thing I'm interested in when thinking about MO and the last thing that makes sense in MO design.
Alright, pointed out why OS' are in 90% of the cases worse than Crosiers in the very first post, but let's take your examples specifically. I'm glad you are not trying to defend the basic 13 pts OS, at least, this guy is as good as dead 1. Getting HRL OS into a Haris / Core of Tetuons: Well, is it really worth it to get out the BS13 B2 LI ARO piece without any extra buffs that would help him out to hold his ground for a bit longer than 1 order? We're talking about Keisotsu ML level of "efficiency" here. Why waste 1.5 SWC on that if you could just as well pick 13pts/0SWC Crosier Blitzen in the same team with about the same effect? Generally speaking, Teutons are decent at being BS14 B2 HI Panzerfaust+Dodge ARO for 19 pts/0SWC each, wouldn't it make more sense to use them for the role of cheap ARO piece rather than OS HRL? It's only 4 points more, after all. And well, everything that applied to the Core has its place in Haris, and then we're dealing with BS12 B2 ARO piece eating our valuable SWCs that you'll always find a better place to spend on, be it Trinitarian MSR, Teuton Spitfire, Bulleteer Spitfire, Tikbalang AP HMG or Black Friar HRL (and those are just the first reasonable ways to spend SWC that come to mind). 2. OS Hacker is a bit better, perhaps - but even then, they are not, by any means, good. A basic Hacking device means he's likely gonna get dunked on by any killer pitcher being thrown around. And let's remember - this guy brings down the efficiency of a Crosier Core he participates in, meaning that there won't be a cheap BS15 Crosier MSR ARO option anymore (meaning you're gotta take something more expensive as ARO instead). MO hacker coverage is also not exactly great, as nice as double Peacemakers could be, it's putting plenty of points into the direction MO is not really that strong in - and leaving yourself wide open for abusing those very same bulleteers for enemy hacking. Is it really worth it? And why should players be punished for trying to use the overcosted OS unit anyway? P.S. Auxbot OS versions are kinda interesting, but... they don't particularly synergise with any playstyle and take a lot of orders to get them where they are needed the most: 1. Combi Rifle is a more expensive Auxilia that does exactly the same job 2. HRL is BS12 B1 Long-range ARO? Plus a close-range area blocker? So... what are we trying to do well, exactly? (not talking about 1.5SWC spent on that weirdo) 3. Hacker would be kinda interesting, but you can't really hack and attack with the flamethrower in the same order/ARO, which kills its efficiency a fair bit. I'm afraid that won't really address the issue at hand, although it would give OS some sort of a niche as optional fillers for Teutons (still worse than Crosiers at that though). Teutons Core with Bulleteer and Curator could be a strong thing though, 6-X moving assault fireteam Is there something wrong with an extra LI trooper in a sectorial? I believe, Starmada has something like that with Kappas and Bluecoats - but those actually do different jobs and propose different interesting options.
Disposable weapons aren't able to stop a warband rush. If you're trying to impede the movements of things like Taigha spam or Bears the HRL is better at it while being cheaper than the next most expensive lethal option, the MSR. I said put them with Teutons, not Crosiers. The Teutons have a Tinbot for the hacker. MO turn 1 defensive hacking coverage is actually bigger than CJC. Double peacemakers has a bigger footprint than double Morans because of the difference in base size. As for cost, anybody who has access to Guilangs regularly pays more points than that to get a pair of forward Dep Reps down with minelayers, it's a reasonable expenditure for the defensive measure. You don't have to light the world on fire with your hackers for this to be useful. A forward hacking screen forces your opponent to spend orders dealing with it instead of doing stuff like running over to your side of the table and ramming an Avatar down your throat with 12+ orders.
I remember when people crying about "OS are too expensive give us cheap order generators", so I agree the first part. However, from the fireteam change, 'cheap LI linkable with knights', one of the previous identity of OS got overlap with crosiers. Before the update, crosiers could not link with teutons or hospitallers. That was OS's field. Crosiers also could not make a haris while OS could. However, crosiers can now link with Teutons, make a haris and add wildcards there. Crosiers even look better with their paramedic and cheaper price. Hospitallers now link with themselves only. This is why I feel crosiers invaded OS's niche.
That's most certainly fair, but then again, how good is BS12(13) B2 Sergeant at impending rather agile and often smoke-chugging warbands? Wouldn't Black Friar HRL do this role far better? And I still would like to remind you that MSR Crosier is BS15 in a pure Core while OS is just BS13 at best. Aren't 3 extra points well worth +2BS? Haha, point taken. That's actually adding an insult to injury In the end, one of the reasons OS could exist is to use his "reasonably good" WIP 13, and Combi Auxbot OS doesn't get that. That's a very challenging thesis, but perhaps you're right. I'll have to try this playstyle out before I could tell, so far I'm pretty sure Jazz&Billie or Bit&Kiss would make mincemeat from my OS, but... who knows, let's see. Different metas we have, it looks like :) Also, I believe you won't get stacked bonuses from Peacemaker repeater and the Teuton Tinbot, so is there a sense in bringing both to the board?
Black Friar is more expensive. Both are fine, but this is the budget option when you want something heads up to at least force some kind of contest on it but also don't want to spend the extra ten points. The point being is if you don't have something heads up and are going full on null deployment said warbands can mov-mov all they want. Forcing them to toss smoke slows them down, it's a 15 point dude you get what you pay for he's just slowing them down a bit. The question is do you want to spend 5 army slots and your core on a pure Crosier link? Yeah it does shoot better but it is taking up real estate that could be a mixed link with Teutons and other things in it. No right answer there as far as I'm concerned, depends what you want out of your list. I don't think it's a necessity to play pure links to have strong lists. B4-5 pointmen firing on BS14s is powerful enough in the active turn to take most things head on, and there's value in getting diversity in your fireteams. If your opponent is fighting your 18pt Order Sergeant they aren't spending orders crippling models you actually like or completing objectives like stealing beacons or smashing AC2s. Again, he's a deterrent, not a final solution. They don't stack, but in games where the Order Sergeant is on a more even playing field in the hacking game for example against another Pan-O or Yu Jing player the tinbot helps protect the Sergeant as the link moves further up the table. Meanwhile the Sergeant will provide a localised deterrent to keep HI threats, like say a Su Jian with a B3 Heavy Shotgun (or a Teuton mirror match), from just running straight up to your fireteam and doing what it likes.
One of the main problems with MO is that their action pack got released pre-Raveneye, while Morats got theirs at the same time as the Raveneye link teams overhaul. You'll notice that Morats have no problem making diverse and powerful link teams that enjoy the maximum bonuses. There's a simple solution for MO: Just re-sculpt and re-release the action pack all over again. People will buy it! Especially if all of their teams, including Order Sergeants, can suddenly link easily with everyone else and get all of the perks. You could even make a new version of the 3D-action battle report, this time with MO winning over Morats (and Bostria remembering that the KOS actually has natural born warrior).
I think a khd option and replacement of basic option with something like minelayer with some mines or n2 and Order Sergeants (Crosier) entry in fireteams chart would make OS an interesting pick
Bluecoats are not Rifle armed Linetroopers (and slightly out of price range). They also do have very interesting Profiles and a Lt option. This isn't about LI as a trooptype, this is about OS not being very distinct troops. They have no important purpose that couldn't be easily migrated to Croziers if you wanted to conserve MO's access to that exact Profile.
