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Deployment of Decoy/Minelayer camouflaged troopers

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Child9, Apr 11, 2022.

  1. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Sorry, this question has surely been answered elsewhere but I didn't managed to find it.
    Lets say someone has a Spetsnaz (Camouflage and Decoy-1) and a Strelok (Camouflage, Minelayer, Decoy-1).
    Upon deployment, does the player has to clearly state "these two camo tokens belong to one mini and these three camo tokens to another one" or does he just put 5 camo tokens, and the other player as to figure out everything?

    I hope it's clear enough.
    Thanks!
     
  2. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Option B "does he just put 5 camo tokens, and the other player as to figure out everything?"

    The only informatiosn you have to give to your oponent are the combat group and silhouette of your camo marker

    Also : if you have to perform a coherency check because your decoy/mine is a bit far away from your miniature : try to be discreet
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    There's no general obligation to identify that they're all coming from one unit. However, currently there's a specific obligation to measure the ZoC of either the Strelok or the mine, which tells them that one of them is a minelayer and the other a mine, but not which is which, and doesn't tell them anything about the decoys.

    There is hope that that rule will change.

    In the meantime, some players are using a houserule that you can do the measurement secretly. You should discuss it with your opponent in advance, since RAW, they get to know you've done the measurement.
     
  4. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, it can really be a mess to figure out what is what for the opponent if everything is packed in a relatively small area! :)

    Yeah, that houserule seems a good idea.

    Thanks for the crystal-clear and quick answer.
     
    QueensGambit likes this.
  5. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    We are obligated to measure ZoC, that adds pointless steps to your deployments, so you should do it quickly without wasting any additional minutes. So put down your camo in correct order, measure the ZoC you had to measure, and don't offer your opponent to ask you to redo the measuring steps a second time if he was not paying attention.

    edit to add to QueensGambit. I agree with that house rule. measuring ZoC is an obligation. You know what else is an obligation ? noting the placement of your hidden deployment. Since the placement is not a part of the Army List (you did not submit it to the TO with your list*), it doesn't fall under Open/Private Info. Yet we allow** that the other player should put blindfold on or turn around while you perform the task of noting the exact placement. That courtesy should be extended to measuring mandatory ZoCs.

    *not everything related to a private info model is automatically private by association. Which combat group a camo marker belongs in the Army List is open info. LoF to a camo marker (not an Army List info) is not private.
    **even if placement is hidden info, you can note it down on a paper or a picture while the opponent is looking. rules only ask that you be as accurate as you can, not that you go above and beyond what is reasonably possible.
     
    #5 Robock, Apr 11, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    For fairness sakes, if you want to have an option to hide these measurements you have to discuss it with your opponent before you do it. If you try and be "discreet" or do it while the enemy isn't looking or not do the measurements at the same time as placing the Minelayer trooper on the table - well... you'd be cheating otherwise.

    As a TO this is currently one of two really important issues to deal with before the tournament considering how impopular in this change is. (The other being pre-declaring skills before moving)
     
    QueensGambit likes this.
  7. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    "If you try and be "discreet" or do it while the enemy isn't looking or not do the measurements at the same time as placing the Minelayer trooper on the table - well... you'd be cheating otherwise."

    If you are trying to say that I must pause my deployment if I notice my opponent is not paying attention, that is asking too much. on TTS i try to pay attention (so he doesn't need to go over his list after he's done) but sometime I start looking elsewhere like which lines I should deploy a counter. In RL, model stats are not on a mouse-over so you have to wait after deployment to get an idea of what was deployed. Sometime I watch sometime I grab a drink.

    As for second part, definitely! you have to measure immediately as you use the minelayer skill (debatable if you need to ask/wait for your opponent to get back so you can measure ZoC from hidden deploy to camo marker; then ask him to leave again as you continue deploying your other Hidden Dep units. As you said, deploying both HD and then measuring minelayer for the 1st one is cheating).
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm saying that if you intentionally do measuring in a way so that your opponent may have a hard time following or if you refuse to clarify if your opponent asks you to, then you are actually trying to cheat. You need to give your opponent a fair chance to see what you measure under the current rules.
    F.ex. If they choose to go take your deployment phase as a chance to bio break or get a pint then I think we can safely assume they've communicated that they don't need your Minelayer ZoC measurements.

    You are, of course, perfectly entitled not to like this and many people very vocally don't like it - so they often choose to house rule Minelayer to be optional in the same way that measuring Decoy or Holoecho is optional. The important thing to take away is to talk to your opponent before you do it.

    Speaking of TTS
    In TTS there's a tool that makes your unit have a button that provides the zone of control in the shape of a base+8" circle around the mini. This function is perfect for these ZOC measurements as it provides the ZOC without letting you (accidentally or otherwise) measure bespoke measurements that you're not allowed to do or that's really tedious or revealing to do.
    Unfortunately it also adds a pocket for states that makes the miniature hoover up markers. I hope you can turn that function off, but I haven't looked into it.
     
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  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yup, being "discreet" without discussion just opens the door to similar tactics, like if I deliberately put my command tokens in a "discreet" spot on the table, visible but unobtrusive, hoping my opponent won't notice I have five of them. Which would be cheating.

    With minelayer, I get the desire to fix the problems with the current rule, but the principled way to do that is via explicit, agreed houserule.
     
    solkan likes this.
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