Give KHDs AP

I like it. Please CB do it.

We need KHDs to be a threat again, and it would allow them to do stuff that say, a lot of the models that get a regular Hacking device+Trinity wouldn't.

A small example:
right now MAF has the Dartok with Trinity+1Burst and the Zerat KHD. There's little to no reason to pick the zerat over the Dartok. Sure, she starts further up the table, but at that point it's better to just pay more for the HD version as that one has the same weapons but can threathen a wider range of models with her hacking.
Give the KHD AP and suddenly she's an actual threat to Hacker models. And her price makes her useful as a specialist to boot. However, AP won't make her B1 in ARO be a problem.

I think the same notion can be applied to other low-end skirmishers like Zeros, whose KHD option suddenly becomes an actual threat to other hackers with just AP tacked on.

 

Small counter-proposal: make all hacking programs have special ammo types, perhaps even several types, but only apply them in the Hacker's own ZoC.

 

That doesn't solve the issue of not being able to mount a reasonable defense against a bunkered down uber hacker that's tossing pitchers across the table at you.

 

This is not that thread, but let's say that lowering their efficacy if they want to be cowards may have a similar effect without completely robbing people of options. It'd also make the environment slightly more target rich for midfield KHDs if the HDs had to get out and about to do a good job on hard targets.

 

Keep in mind one of the metagame issues that we're facing is there is nobody to provide a reasonable ARO deterrent against said uberhacker nerds using spotlight from a massively safe distance to deliver instant death with guided missiles, especially if you are player 2.

 

Correct. The idea is that killer hackers can exploit the hacking network. By adding AP to the KHD, plus whatever upgrades or ammo types on programs they become significantly more effective vs high BTS hackers. One layer of defense is fine, 2 layers (BTS + Firewalls) is another.

 

Wouldn't a lot of issues with guided be gone if spotlight allowed BTS save?
Give it high damage and some special ammo so it has decent chance of sticking but now at least there is the chance. And with premium targets having usually higher BTS it would be self balancing tool, juicer targets are harder to kill as they should be.

 

This is about the effectiveness of KHDs in the current edition. Not about spotlight or GMLs. There is another thread for that. I would suggest posting this idea over there, it seems like a good one.

Right now they are primarily cheap hackers to push buttons.

 

Which, again, is a different thread but not immutable, either. It was useless in N3 it can be made useless again. Or something in between

 

I'm really sorry to sort of derail the thread a little. But am I the only one who is baffled by the grenade (+launcher) and missile launcher disparity?
I would expect grenades to at least have shock, if not a little bit more punch than an uzi. Maybe hollywood is to blame for my grenade expectations.

 

They need to give them back the +3 range band. But yes, different topic.

 

I really like this idea.

Not sure why pitchers etc need to be a stat advantage to the owner. Their advantage is in range extension. Getting players to choose between safety and impact makes the use of hackers more interesting.

Regarding AP on Killer Hackers, I'm less sure. It does help with cracking an immortal hacker in a DZ acting through Morans, but it can have knock on effects up to and including making hackers super shit like they used to be because of how cheap and lethal KHD were.

But is this the ideal solution? Sometimes if rock is too strong, you should buff paper. But other times, rock is just too strong and that is where the change should be. Would not toning down that immortal hackers capabilities, or the turn zero repeater capabilities of Moran and friends, be a better one?

 

What about reverting them to ignoring firewalls again?

 

ZoC is interesting, but doesn't help other than getting rushed down by marker state killer hackers throwing pure death from behind a building. Would make the KHD Sombra really fun though.

I still think KHDs being able to ARO successfully (within reason) through the enemy repeater network is key.

 

I think it's too much and removes non-uber hackers from the game more than it affects the uber hackers. Jazz or an Interventor likely won't care that much. Hitting their BTS though brings them down without really hurting the 0 and 3 BTS basic hackers.

 

For hacking to exist, you have to accept that some level of kills you from behind a building is acceptable. For me, a Killer Hacker physically walking there and performing that act is at that level.

I agree that the best solution to Morans and similar repeater spam is likely in the KHD. The environment should be like ARO pieces - they gain value by exposing themselves to the board, but they are punished by sweepers if they expose themselves too much. Not quite sure how to achieve that when the exposure is 16" bubbles that ignore scenery but I believe that base idea is the ideal to go for.

 

Of course. But just like you don't want a K1 EXP ammo we also don't want the KHD to just absolutely smash every hacker it gets within 8". Especially considering how easy it is for some factions to deliver those to a target compared to others. I would love it on a ton of my profiles, but it would still be dumb. Especially behind a Tinbot on an aggressive link team...

That would be my primary concern. Certain factions have really easy to deliver hacker death in that scenario.

 

100%.

Using ZoC is simply a tool to allow a KHD to function at a different level at different times based on the models positioning. Tools like that are the best form of unit design.

Another approach would be to reconsider the category of killer hackers. Rather than all of them having trinity as a program, different kinds of offensive hackers could have different capabilities. One has trinity to attack relatively soft targets more effectively, one has big dick firewall breaker attacks that do less damage overall and can penetrate a firewall network.

 

Disagree, what it will do is bring those top end hackers down closer to the low end. The BTS 0 - 3 hackers aren't affected by AP and are already vulnerable to Trinity. what it does is put some risk and threat against the 6 - 9's.
And you dont see those low end hackers anyway as it stands as the uber hackers are bricking them with impunity.

But as it stands you dont see KHDs unless someone wants a cheap specialist, they either need to be removed from the game or made relevant, cause at the moment they are just a spec op that can be oblivioned.

which would be fine if you are able to go first, penetrate their defenses and get their hacker, not going to do you a lot of good if youre going second and get crippled by a missile strike or two.


Also while we are talking about hacking Carbonite needs another look in, at dam 13 it's never doing anything and theres never a reason to use it over oblivion. sure it has a different effect to Obv. but Obv. is the better effect and more reliable, and it doesnt matter if the effect is different if it cant be applied.