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Gators

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Tourniquet, Mar 21, 2022.

  1. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    It makes it less of a nerf in the context of the original argument.

    Something that applied more-or-less equally to the entire game cannot be used to justify your faction now needing a buff unless it hit your faction especially hard.

    The Vostok dropping from BS 15, Mimetism (-6), Marksmanship to BS13, Mimetism (-6), Marksmanship is not what I would call especially hard. It's still an absolute terror of an attack piece that will make an absolute mockery of most ARO pieces that dare to stand up to it.

    Even the Evader AP Spitfire dropping from BS 16 to 14 is not especially hard; BS 15 or higher is now much rarer across the board, essentially only existing in PanO and a handful of other places (Including, ironically, the Vostok which will be BS16 thanks to Marksmanship); Burst 5 on 14's is still going to be fine for punching holes in defenses.

    The days of every faction running a BS15-16, Burst 5 Attack piece into a BS15-16 MSV2 Burst 2 sniper are over; the curve has been significantly flattened. Nomads still come out of it with one of the scariest attack pieces in the game.
     
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  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Oh I was not partaking to that argument, I was just pointing out that Jazz as a trooper got another nerf in the form of firteam usability.

    "My faction got balanced in a negative way so I require new units to balance that", is not a good argument in my books.

    As I said for me Corregidor needed a mainline TAG and as far as I am concerned it got one.
     
  3. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    loosing both the wildcard tinbot options is actually a sizeable nerf to army compositions. One of the things that allowed the Geckos to be usable was being able to bolt a MB hacker with -6 tinbot to it. which you can no longer do (and probably a good thing with the addition of the Gator last thing that needs is a -9), meaning despite having access to a bunch of TAG platforms they arent really worth putting on the table as they will just get bricked (unless its the Gator that has a tiny amount of defense, jesus this thing is pushed, gotta make the old Tags worse and the new one good).
     
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  4. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Damn, the constant whining is really tiring... We get it. "Gator is crazy underpriced and overpowered, balance of the entire game is now entirely destroyed and I won't ever be able to enjoy it again!". We get it. Could we please discuss something else?
     
  5. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    It's a thread about Gators, not sure what people are supposed to talk about in it.
     
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  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Corregidor's the most favored Sectorial in all of Infinity. It's okay to recognize it and move on.

    From my perspective, the Gator's obviously the new gold standard in main battle tags. It's got built in stat reductions to some very commonly seen anti-TAG rules, and it has no disadvantages or drawbacks to offset these very obvious benefits. it's even got ideal secondary weapons... E/M is perfect, since TAGs mostly use their Close Cobat ability defensively, fighting off enemy CC combatants. The E/M weapon helps ensure the attacker can't follow up if the Gator squeezes a hit through, and 2x chain Rifles is superior in almost all circumstances to a single flamethrower. They even get mine dispenser for some reason, just in case you want to throw some point defense in there.

    This was clearly someone's hand-crafted love project, with rules cherry-picked to create one of the best TAGs currently available. It's cool that it exists, plenty of armies get this kind of optimized profile. But I wish it wasn't just Corregidor, because it would be cool for other sectorials to get a chance to use it too. Trying to deny that Corregidor as one of the game's top-tier supported sectorials is fantasy.
     
    #126 barakiel, Apr 2, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think ignoring it is Corregidor's time and not the "others sectorials" time is not good, probably these profiles were designed from the start and are released now just to have some momentum for the midpoint of the Crimsone Stone release, Yes, Gator is good for Close Combat, average really if one compares it to good close combat fighters, not that it matters much a CC MA TAG has more or less the same CC defense and more importantly a Gator in CC is a waste of its abilities, its a firepower platform, not an average CC fighter.

    A good question that needs to be asked is what rules the mine dispenser really has?
     
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  8. SpectralOwl

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    I think the other Sectorials should actually get time. We've had multiple major releases for MO, Corregidor and Shasvastii since the last major maintenance of OOP and otherwise old Sectorials, promotional and crossover units have eaten up a huge amount of profile releases, all without the game's power creep slowing down. Sectorials still working with the early-N3 paradigms of Sectorials having powerful strengths at the cost of access to some capabilities are approaching non-viability in competitive spaces while favoured factions are showered with new, hyper-optimised counters to the few tricks many of those older Sectorials have.

    Remember, we have to play between release windows. Having only one viable, fleshed-out Sectorial because of a marketing ploy doesn't produce a very fun game.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    This is from memory, so feel free to chime in if I've overlooked something, but some interesting data:

    Since I started playing, Corregidor's added the following to their list of Nomad-exclusive units:
    • Bandits
    • Jaguars
    • Iguana
    • Valerya
    • Gecko
    • Lupe Balboa
    • Sombras
    • Evaders
    • Jazz & Billie
    • Diggers
    • Diablos
    • Lobos
    • Gator
    • Raveneye

    In the same time, Bakunin's added the following to their list of Nomad-exclusive units:
    • Revered Healer
    • Riot Grrrl
    • Avicenna
    • Chaksa
    • Taskmaster
    Just to be clear, I recognize that Sectorials are different. I don't think an army needs to have the same degree of favoritism as Corregidor in order to be interesting, appealing and competitive. But if we're going to deny that Corregidor's a golden child, or act like it's "Corregidor's turn"... Come on. When is it not Corregidor's turn?
     
    #129 barakiel, Apr 2, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  10. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    FTFY - and come on, MBT on sectorial with moran and vostok? What does this golden child require further? Rigged Avatar?
     
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  11. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    This. Fine, release new models for a few factions at a time while others wait, but for the love of God CB needs to actually work on their internal and external balance more than once every couple years. Fix up underutilized (poorly priced or thought out) profiles.

    And can we please stop the crossover characters that are used to fill holes in every sectorial? It's lazy and getting real old having random names characters, miners, space truckers, TV stars, etc tagging along on BLACK OPS MISSIONS.
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I guess we can casually ignore the years that passed when Bakunin and mostly Tunguska was adding units to their roster and Corregidor did not.

    Tunguska alone in their update added about the same units to their roster, and the additions of units they have with this update may bring them to more, even Bakunin had a few new non Nomad units added to them.

    @ObviousGray That is my opinion, for me Corregidor is a faction that needed a mainline TAG, in contrast with Shasvastii for example were something other than Sphynx makes no sense, my comment was and still is many people center around the amount of CC related skill Gator has that are not really that important for a shooting platform, mine dispenser and double chainrifle are better things to discuss about.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    @psychoticstorm why is Corregidor in need of a mainline TAG, much less an overoptimised beast of it? What role does it fill that couldn't be filled by Iguana and support? Since when Corregidor has become a TAG faction? Faction weaknesses exist for a reason. Right now there's exactly one weakness in Corregidor - it has very few Lt. choices and no CoC. It's a serious weakness, I agree, but it's not enough to balance the amount of great units the sectorial gets in a seemingly never ending stream, while other sectorials wither on the vine

    I advise to think very carefully about what @SpectralOwl wrote. We want to play the game between release windows. CB's approach to releases decreases the amount of viable options and plays merry hell with balance, and what's worse, it seems that running forward from issues is in full effect here; side games take over designers' attention, newcomers from those side games bloat the roster to the point of making some sectorials look like an RPG with some actual units crammed in on the sidelines, issues wait for fixes - or even simple recognition - for years, which is also how long some units wait for critical models, while others are getting resculpts. It creates an enviroment in which the core game becomes less and less fun to play, and counterarguments sound less like a difference of opinion, and more like denial. Instead of trying to build higher and higher it'd be great for someone to look at the state of foundations and load-bearing structure. Infinity is a very robust system, it can take a lot of bending before it'll break. But when it reaches that breaking point we'll be up shit creek without a paddle.
     
    #133 Stiopa, Apr 2, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
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  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Corregidor needed a TAG, especially a third one, like a hole in the head.

    Of these sectorals, who currently don't have any TAG, do you think should get one?:
    Imperial service
    Caledonia
    USAriadna
    TAK
    Steel Phalanx

    I would think it would be the one that's a part of the Second super power in the sphere. Even Hassassins, a sectoral known for secrecy, low profile, and 1% of the budget has a TAG! Also one of those sectorals is "retired" for now. I was a bit surprised TAK didn't get the Chernobog.

    Achillies is already a TAG himself. But Aleph is at least getting a re-sculpt of the Marut. Every Code one army has a TAG so it's almost guaranteed it's the Marut.

    I understand it's all about the sales though. Nomads are popular. They have an interesting story, look and rules. Also, a re-sculpt of existing figures, Iquana, don't sell nearly as well as new ones. They are also highly favored by CB themselves. It's kinda hard to deny at this point.

    Sorry if this sounds like salt. I'm not mad about the Gator and happy for Nomad players. :smiley:
     
  15. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    This is the whole issue. Instead of going back and fixing things, making balance passes, making sure each sectorial has a variety of strengths and weaknesses, resculpting some really out of date models, etc. Corvus Belli just releases more new profiles, shoves in more crossover characters to push their Kickstarters, and denies/ignores any issues with the game. We have dozens of profiles (at least) that go completely unused due to having an obviously superior choice, no clear role, or they are just an underoptimized troop in general. Corvus Belli puts less work into going back and at least trying to fix stuff than GW. Which is awful.

    If they wanted to do things that CJC actually needed, how about an EVADER box, or a Wildcat box? New Carlota? Buff the Iguana? Resculpt the Iguana or Geckos (they don't even have the correct weapons on one of them anymore)? A Tomcat box with more of them? More new Hellcats? Tsyklons/Lunokhod resculpt? Etc.

    That's all stuff that CJC could actually use without filling a hole in the lineup that didn't need to be filled with a new unit. Literally all they needed to do there was buff the Iggy. Then we would still have a unique piece that fits in without further bloating the roster.
     
  16. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Imagine an Oniwaban with a HRMC. Now imagine someone saying "the Oniwaban is a CC unit, we shouldn't take into account the HRMC"

    Obvious exaggeration, but you get my meaning

    Also @Stiopa , why shouldn't Corregidor be a TAG faction? They are already a hacking faction, HI faction, and even a CC faction. Hell, just remove the rest of the factions and let's all play Corregidor painted in different colors. I'm ok with factions getting some optimized units to emphasize theme, but what theme wants CB to emphasize with Corregidor when they get optimize TAG, optimized hacker, optimized REM, optimized basic HI and optimized skirmishers? What's left for other factions? Why is the theme of a fuckin penal/worker ship OPTIMIZATION?
     
    #136 Benkei, Apr 2, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
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  17. micawber

    micawber Junkship Jockey

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    Corregidor has 36 unique units right now. That is more than any other sectorial.

    It's also tied with Onyx for the most TAGs at three. The criminal space janitors sectorial has as many TAGs as the elite strike force of an EI led multi species super collective.

    Back when I started playing Corgy was the pragmatic no bullshit faction with flexible and cheap but not very elite or flashy units, horrible leadership, restricted but widespread hacking and some cheap TAG options that felt more like HI.

    In the last few years each and every one of those unique characteristics have either disappeared (except for the leadership part) or turned completely upside down.

    All the while mostly ignoring internal balance issues and other sectorials in dire need of some attention.

    I can't help but think that CB is in urgent need of someone to manage their color/sectorial identities.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Exactly what I said. Give Nomads a reasonable toy for Code 1 and throw Bakunin a bone while they're at it.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why?
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It needs to stop being Corregidor's time. It's been Corregidor's time for too long. What do you want, them to get the best TAGs, the best troops, the best hacking? They need to have some weaknesses. I had some StarCo/Nomads stuff, but the amount of favoritism to the faction (or Corregidor specifically) makes me not want to play them. I'm working on giving them away or selling them at this point.
     
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