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Smoke

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by QueensGambit, Mar 25, 2022.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Do y'all find you're using smoke much these days or having it used against you?

    I've been experimenting with smoke-heavy lists (double Kum, Fiday, and 1-2 Mukhtars to shoot through it), but finding I just don't use it all that often as the angles always seem a little wrong and it takes too many orders. My first thought was that I'm just playing badly, which is still very possible, but it occurred to me that I don't think I'm seeing opponents use smoke all that often either.

    Bears throw a lot of smoke, and Saito, and other attack pieces on their attack runs (Zuleyka included). But other than that, do you find you use smoke much during a turn to block of lines of fire for better maneuvering? Or are you just crossing gaps other ways - shooting your way through, cautious movement, going the long way around?
     
  2. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    I haven't done the whole smoke + MSV trick in awhile I must admit.
    There is a lot more MSV about these days and with the change to MSV1 smoke isn't quite the tool it was.
    I feel its become a more situational tool than the staple must-have of the past.
     
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  3. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Hadn't used it in ages because I find it difficult to deliver. I'm playing fewer warbands than I did in N3 and I have fewer orders. BUT I expect fireteams with sixth sense might become less common now? So perhaps I will try more!
     
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  4. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    what I don't see too often as I did in the past is the "combo smoke+MVL2", but maybe this is one thing which will change with the new fireteams rules, but I still see it, maybe because I fight a lot against Ariadna (many flavours) and factions with many warbands (with smoke), used mainly as a tool to move forward and to reach some good spot to shoot or to catch the "console" and do "push" without any ARO. The other day playing Winter against Kosmo the match finished with smoke: last turn, irmandinho placed smoke, move to the "techcoffin" won, without visors I couldn't do nothing. I used often smoke while playing haquisslam to move forward or to covert some miniatures, or, as always, to avoid be killed in active or reactive turn by a "enemy shooter".

    So, make it short, I still see smoke pretty much in every game I don't face factions without smoke.

    Best regards
     
  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    My Aleph opponent likes to use Smoke against me - if I don't have a MSV covering given approach.

    However, recently he found he overextended himself trying to do a "walking smoke" (throw smoke, move, throw smoke again, rinse, repeat): while effective, especially with zero-V smoke (Eclipse, these days... sorry), it is very Order-intensive.

    I tend to shoot my way through, most of the time - my lists don't have that many Smoke-equipped models, and there's always the consideration of MSV on the other side. I mean, if there aren't any, Smoke is viable - but only if there aren't.
    Cautious Movement is fine, but doesn't work for some models, and requires terrain to be just right. So, i do use it sometimes, but more often, just shoot away.

    All in all, I consider the limited amount of Orders availabel, and limited game length (3 turns) to be the main reason behing lower Smoke use. One has to concentrate on other things, and thus there's less assets left to use Smoke.
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Game length hasn't changed, but you may be right that the 15-order cap is responsible for a reduction in smoke use (if indeed there's been one). In N3 I'd have something like 12-13 regular orders, and 4 Mutts on top of that.

    Also, the Mutts all had jammers so their main job was to hide, which made their impetuous and irregular orders mostly useful for smoke.

    And, I was running two Mukhtars. Which I've tried in N4 recently, and just got fed up with the Red Fury - DAM13 doesn't seem to cut it any more. So another reason for using less smoke in Haqq may be that our best MSV2 units are all low-DAM weapons. (With the exception of the Djanbazan HMG, which might be an option worth considering although he's just nowhere near the gunfighter a Mukhtar is).

    @Urobros you raise a good point. I think my best use of smoke recently was in Supplies, where on turn one a Kum used her impetuous order to smoke a box which a Hunzakut then grabbed - one impetuous and one irregular order to pick up an objective is pretty good! And then I misplayed and gave my opponent the box... but what I should have done is the Kum takes the box from the Hunzakut and escapes to the backline, and the Hunzakut drops a mine and repeater and recamos, all under the smoke cover.

    I might try keeping two Kum in button-pushing missions, but going down to just Zuleyka in other missions.
     
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  7. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Remember Fidays also have smoke so virtually every Haqq list has smoke somewhere, even without any other troops.

    I actually sometimes deploy my Fidays in the midboard and just use them as super skirmishers instead of assassination pieces. In these cases the smoke is more useful.
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I always intend to do this, and then I get to the table and all my plans vanish and I'm like, kill, kill, KILL. Every. single. game.

    That said, in Supplies there's value in leaving the Fidays tucked away near the enemy DZ to hunt down boxes the opponent has already recovered. So using them to smoke the objectives isn't necessarily ideal. In other missions, I should really be doing it more.
     
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  9. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    In QK I'll keep my Yuan Yuan as my reserve model, then decide if I want him to be next to my djanbzan for impetuous smoke or use it for AD. The more options you have after you set up the better. I no long plan on it before the game starts. If I preplan the combo, It might take too many orders to get both in the right spot. they might just be as likely have MSV counting the entire list.
     
  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I play HB and I use smoke via Ghazi and linked NCO Ghulam, so they're incredibly small opportunity cost.

    I also don't play any active turn weapons that shoot further than 24".

    So I'll still smoke to get an extra move in to get in range (if I need it).
     
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  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Smoke has been less valuable since the order cap. Its a bit like skirmishers in that with enough orders, it can do anything. But we don't have enough orders for that any more.
     
  12. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    Before the Fireteam changes, I had 2 MSV2 (Yara and Mukhtar Red Fury), so smoke was not exactly an issue. With that said, my regular opponents rarely use smoke outside of a Yojimbo run; and even those are a bit order intensive.
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Ok, I've played a bunch of games now with Zuleyka as the only source of smoke, or sometimes Zuleyka and a Mutt. Conclusion: I'm still using smoke quite often, but mostly just when I need to cross one gap. If I need to get two smokes down, it's probably not worth it and I'm better off finding a different play. One smoke usually costs two orders from group 2 (Zuleyka moves 8", launches on an 11 and fails, then moves 8", throws on a 16 and succeeds) and can be well worth it.

    Almost always, the purpose is to get a specialist to an objective. Especially when the specialist is the Rafiq which can't Cautious Move. And my Rafiq is seeing a lot of action, so smoke is definitely still feeling relevant.

    Zuleyka + Mutt is feeling like the right amount of smoke in button-pushing missions. The Mutt is a lot easier to hide than a second bike, and can also bring a jammer. For missions that don't need specialists delivered to targets, just Zuleyka seems sufficient.
     
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  14. BoxedSnake

    BoxedSnake Well-Known Member

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    I'm not seeing too much smoke either in N4. I mostly play Druze and I always use the brawler with MSV2 in a core, so just Eclipse grenades.

    It seems like now it's just another tool to block some shooters or blind some spots, but I'm not seeing it as an attack option any more
     
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