So, the recent Fireteams update has brought a lot of interesting stuff to MO: - Teutons finally can join into cheap Crosier links - Bulleteer can join Order Sergeant Haris (and that's almost the only viable option to bring linkable OS, we're gonna talk about it later) - Wildcard cheap Kyle Hawkins, which is a reliable way to bring versatile BS15 24'' range shooter into your mixed core fireteam (if you bring one) - Joan's fireteam can be a simple Haris now, which is much more affordable On the other hand, a bunch of units also got the short end of the stick: - Knights of Santiago can't form fireteams of their own and don't have any special keywords allowing them to keep coherency with anyone, which makes us pay a high price for their wonderful versatility - so I'd only expect to see them in Haris teams, where the composition bonus doesn't matter much anyway. De Fersen is now "the Santiago" of Hospitallers core, but he's so expensive you'd think twice before taking him in. - Knights of Justice are about to go extinct - there's virtually no reason to take Missile one over Teuton in a Crosier or Teuton core, as a bit of extra armour and +1BS are NOT worth 19 points of difference. Other KoJ loadouts were already covered by the Knight of Santiago anyway, and nothing has changed to make KoJ more appealing. The biggest hit KoJ got is a lack of any special keyword, immediately shunning his performance in link teams. I imagine if he'd get a Teuton keyword, it would make him much more playable than he is now (as you would be able to compose full Teuton Core links with their help). - Infirmarers became even more laughably useless - since the only "native" fireteam they can join is... Order Sergeant Haris, and you don't really need them there at all. Seriously, they used to be bad at 25 pts per 1W mediocre specialist that breaks your link team composition, but now we're gonna forget they ever existed. They need to be able to keep the composition bonus for knight teams OR a big reduction in cost if you'd like to see them playing at all. - The Black Friar is now a bit of a pariah (appropriate, I guess?) and brings the whole team he partakes in down; however, MSV2 HRL is still a very good weapon and he will see play in mixed Crosier core, to be sure (or, likely, be the main reason that core is mixed). No native fireteams for him, but he can be part of a Crosier or Teuton Haris now, which is... kinda interesting. The poor Black Friar MSR could as well not exist at all though, I don't get why CB hates him so much. Finally, the time has come to talk about the main point of this thread, the signature infantry of the Military Orders, the glorious Order Sergeants. Where shall we start? 1. First and foremost, they are a bland and inflexible infantry now (direct opposite to what they used to be), sporting 3 different linkable profiles and 3 weird overcosted Auxbot profiles, stats wise they are slightly buffed Crosiers, a bit more suitable for pushing buttons and cyber warfare. The problem is, in any situation you can substitute OS with a Crosier, you probably would like to (read below). 2. Basic Combi 13 points profile is only useful as an OS Haris filler - in a composition like Bulleteer Spitfire / Curator / OS; otherwise is completely useless and outshined by either Crosier Combi 11pts or Crosier Blitzen+E/Mines 13 pts or Crosier Paramedic 13 pts - which are ALL better. 3. OS' have no Crosier keyword for some reason, so you don't want them in your pure Crosier fireteams, and well... if you get to choose between Crosier MSR with full composition bonuses and an OS HRL with size bonuses only, there is no real competition, take the Crosier. Thus, a pretty decent OS HRL+AssPistol profile is yet again ruined by far stronger competition for the same role. Yet again, you might consider one in an OS Haris (or maybe, in Crosier or Teuton Haris, under some weird circumstances) - but that's about it. 4. Same goes for the OS Hacker - he's not particularly bad and might see the day in OS Haris, but it's not exactly likely to have him in a Crosier fireteam now by himself, as he's breaking the composition bonus everybody worked so hard for. Now, if you're taking a Black Friar in there, might as well get the OS Hacker, although MO does not have a very good Hacking coverage, unfortunately. It is a reasonably viable idea to combine Teuton with a Tinbot and an OS Hacker, as that allows to construct a somewhat potent hacking threat. However, OS lost his previous role as a HI link team filler and hasn't gained anything instead, leaving him in a sort of weird limbo. Crosiers do their job better in most of the cases, allowing you to bring cheap Paramedics with your Teutons (or Santiagos, if we're talking Haris), while Hospitallers prohibit using the regular non-character OS in their links anyway. So, what's their intended purpose now? I suggest CB fixes it by doing any of the following: 1. OS gains Crosier or Teuton keyword in the MO fireteam 2. OS gains Core fireteam, Black Friar can join it as OS, KoJ can join it as OS - making OS fireteam a true competitor LI fireteam with Crosier; more expensive but also more flexible 3. OS gains Wildcard - up to 1 OS anywhere (at the cost of link team bonuses, but still) 4. MO gets an extra Haris slot - so we don't have to screw our brains by choosing between Hospi Haris, Crosier Haris, Teuton Haris or OS Haris all that much 5. OS gets profiles that are significantly different from Crosiers and provide a really useful utility: for example, how about OS Number 2 or OS Strategic Deployment? Then, you could see why would you want to break the link coherency with them. It's important to add: this is not a request to make OS overpowered, merely to bring them some love and make them playable again. Currently, unfortunately, there is very little reason for this guy to exist - and that's depressing considering how it used to be a go-to bread-and-butter unit a mere couple of years ago. I would like to know your thought about this request, your opinion on the general usefulness of the humble OS and perhaps, the role you'd like to see them in. Thanks!
So, basically, give them Father Knight treatment? Well, that could work - but we still gotta figure out what to do with the existing OS profiles that do not match so well with Crosiers'. For example, should we just carry over OS HRL to Crosier by adjusting the stats and changing the price to 13pts / 1.5 SWC? (that could be pretty sweet, to be sure) And the OS Hacker - 16pts, 0.5 SWC then? (with a reduced WIP and BTS he's a bit less capable though) Finally, Auxbot OS'es would get a long-awaited price reduction and become almost like Auxilia, but with a better BS? And of course, it's not quite clear what should be done with the existing OS Haris option - just kill it? Get rid of the Haris-linked Bulleteer in MO altogether? (I kinda like that option, to be fair - if only there wouldn't be such a hard competition for the Haris slot in MO)
Crosiers and Order Sergeant are two distinctly different units and should remain as such. breaking apart Order Sergeants to Crosiers for cheap troops, Order Sergeants for specialized functions and Trinitarian Tertiaries for the Specialist roles was a great idea that pushed dynamism and function in MOs.
Order Sergeants have always been a tough sell for their points and the latest reworks (counting the FT update) didn't do them any favors. I think they can go the way of the Dodo and no one would miss them if 3 of their Profiles show up in Croziers. Now that Croziers can create a Haris there's pretty much no need for them to be their own troop. HRL and Hacker are easily moved and so are the Auxbot options. Almost everyone would love these 4 Profiles at 2 points less.
Giving everybody the cheap optimized profiles they want is not the way things should happen, better find a suggestion on how to make Order Sergeant become more appealing.
To achieve pure bonus in MO you need to have an entire Crosier core + Knight Commander, a Knight Haris of some kind or a Hospitaller Core. So it's less about achieving that pure bonus now. Because tbh mixed MO links have the combat power to dominate many mixed links now just as they did before. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 1 TEUTONIC KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 28) ORDER SERGEANT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18) CURATOR Combi Rifle, D-Charges, AP Mines ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 17) CROSIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) 2 SWC | 76 Points Open in Infinity Army This should probably become the foundation of all defensive cores in MO with 2 link members as flex pieces. Ideally the HRL Black Friar/Spitfire Crosier (depending upon how much swc you have to play with) to deal with Smoke/layer his range bands allowing the Teuton Knight to deal with White Noise attack vectors. You have a cheap B2 Medikit in there and considering that the Teutons don't have cubes may as well stick with Medikits anyway, and a Sixth sense hacker to layer with a peacemaker to deal with Stealthing enemies. If anything to make OS more niche - Have them become the MI of the faction. The Crusader Brethren are already along this line.
I think what we have to count is their role in gaming table regarding fireteam. The followings are the roles of troops in fireteam I guess from this fireteam rework. - Crosiers are the cheapest block to build a fireteam. You can make a cheap pure fireteam with them(+Knight Commander as hidden Lt), but the cost is their lesser stats and durability. If you want them more resilient or deadly, you have to sacrifice composition bonus and add wildcards - Teutonic Knights are the cheapest knight with decent stats and weaponary. They can now go with Crosiers, so they got cost reduction and utility at the same time. They will never gain the full composition bonus, but I think it is the cost of being cheap and efficient. - Knight Hospitallers are there for premium fireteam which is the only fireteam can have full composition bonus with knights. They can shoot B5 HMG with BS17, but they are expensive. Also, lack of strong aro weapon with them is another weakness. - Knight of Santiago and Justice are both were designed as specialist wildcard in a fireteam. They have their own strength and weakness compared to each other, so I think they did not overshadowing each other before the fireteam rework. However, after the fireteam rework, Teutons now can bring most things that Knight of Santiago or Justice added to fireteams as a wildcard for much cheaper points, so Knight of Santiago and Justice have to specialize to justify their high cost. - Order Sergeants were substitute to reduce points in knight fireteams before the fireteam rework. With the update, they lost the ability to join Hospitallers and Teutons got cheaper Crosiers substitute. However, they got a nice new toy: Bulleteer. Order Sergeants bring Heavy Rocket Launcher, Hacking Device with WIP13, Auxbots, and a Bulleteer in Haris. Many people think Bulleteer in Haris will be great with new curator, so this will be one reason to bring Order Sergeants. OS hacker with Bulleteer Haris is also acceptable if you are not squeezing out for point or SWC. I think pure Crosier core is not worth it due to their low stats, so I'd like to add at least ML Teuton or HRL Black Friar. In that case, I'll be pleased to add a Hacker OS in that fireteam if I want a hacker. I heard OS with Auxbot is OK in base defense (especially HRL one), but I'm not sure they are good or not. Usually I didn't have points to bring them. For me, OS feels not that bad but also not very appealing. Except OS in a Haris with Bulleteer, these OS profiles can be added to my list but they are not my top priority. Can we fix this with fireteam options? I don't think so. Giving them Teuton or Hospitaller tag can degrade the concepts of each knights fireteam and eventually make one of them unappealing. Crosier tag also is not working because most Crosier fireteam will be a mixed fireteam. OS core seems appealing, but will always bring comparison between them and Crosiers. Therefore, I think adding some special things to OS is a good way to make them more appealing. Maybe make combi OS a specialist (FO or SO) or just give a flash pulse to use WIP13? Number 2 can also be great reason to add them into a fireteam. What about Sensor? I think they can be more interesting with a small bit of spice. I think the ones actually need more concern right now are Knight of Santiago and Justice. They are overshadowed by spitfire and ML Teutons and kicked out from their Crosier home. My wish is to enable composition bonus always for Crusade fireteam when Joan is in, so make them a true expensive premium deathstar fireteam.
11 points Linetroopers is way above average these days. CB dropped the ball, 3 times (?) on making Order Sergeants anything other than boring but expensive takes on other comparable troops. Heck they took away their role and the most interesting Profiles, added them to Croziers and gave Croziers stuff like E/M and Blitzen to make them more appealing to further obsolete OS. Now that their Link support is gone, what is left for them? The 5th MO rework in a couple years?
I'll be honest, not that i've been particularly plugged in since the MO rework, but I didn't realise Order Sergents were still a thing - I thought they became the Croziers, and the Specialist Sergents became the Trinitarians.
Generally agree with you, but speaking of the low stats of full Crosier core fireteam: in terms of ARO we actually have the following choices: - Crosier MSR 18pts | 1.5 SWC with BS15 (if the team is pure) - Crosier Blitzen 13pts | 0 SWC with BS15 (if the team is pure) - OS HRL 15pts | 1.5 SWC with BS13 - Teuton ML 27pts | 1.5 SWC with BS14 - Teuton Panzerfaust | 19pts | 0 SWC with BS14 - Black Friar HRL 25pts | 1.5 SWC with BS14 and MSV2 - Knight of Justice 46pts | 1.5 SWC with BS15 So, as you could see, the fireteam purity actually gets the team BS to the top accessible level, rivalling the one you get with the Knight of Justice - and for a much, much cheaper price. Why would you consider the pure Crosier fireteam bad / not to be taken often? I mean, sure, Crosiers are weak in terms of wounds and armour, will fold like tissue paper if hit, but the shooting capacity (which is often more important than being able to sustain hits) is the same. The only major improvement over that BS is Black Friar HRL with his MSV2 that can compensate for the lower BS by having a much more imposing presence on the table. The only reason to bring OS HRL into the Crosier fireteam - is when it's already mixed with Teutons (possibly cheap Teuton Lt) and you don't have any points for any other ARO than OS HRL - which is the cheapest option if also the worst one available, surprisingly. However, there is never a reason to bring OS Combi to the table in the Crosier core, it's only detrimental and can always be replaced by a better/cheaper Crosier option. So, I suppose this profile should be fixed first? I personally like having special equipment or skill on Order Sergeants - they are called sergeants for a reason, after all. Obviously, not every profile needs Number 2, Strategic Deployment, Sensor, Tinbot, Forward Observer or maybe Counterintelligence - but it would be great to have such options on the Combi OS (for a bit of an increased cost, probably, but that's kinda ok). And well, I agree that Knights of Santiago and Justice aren't gonna see the table much anymore due to them having no team keywords. Yeah, they could be fixed somewhat by making Santiago (Knight Hospitaller) and Knight of Justice (Knight Hospitaller, Teuton), even though those options would be expensive - but that's the whole point, Knight of Justice is already so expensive it should be justified (get it? heh) for them to have better keywords than (None). Well, 11pts is above average, but it was a blessing for MO nonetheless, with their typical base infantry price of 13. I can even agree with that price tag for an effectively Religious Fusilier - considering that they can link with Teutons now and allow for a very flexible LI fireteam. The problem is, as you've stated, that the OS fireteam is gone, OS are obsolete and boring, and they certainly deserve something better, given how both Crosiers and Trinitarians are their legacy. #makeOSGreatAgain
I've seen HRL Black Friars with full core bonus falling down within a few orders several times, so I'm not very convinced to a W1 aro piece without other defensive skills. However, the firepower of mixed teams toned down, so things may have changed. We'll figure out how good or bad the pure line troop fireteams are soon.
Holomasks, and more weapon loadout options like boarding shotguns and/or Panzerfausts. This solves several of your other mentioned issue units as well, because when you bluff your OS as a KoJ hacker or Black Friar, they will learn not to take those units seriously, until they do walk in hacking range or into the template of the real guys. Your mixed teams all get elevated because they can bluff the most appropriate counter to your opposition. Giving different weapon loadouts should at least keep your Escort Sargent with unknown rangebands and damage types that they need to figure out before they can pick the right counter.
Corvus Belli is great at going one step forward and then making a step back. Introduction of Trinitary Terciares was a good thing to untangle TOFOOS and MSR TO from "regular" order seargents, and giving them some addtional options and profiles without messing up too muc a single troop type. Thats step forward. And then they introduced for no frikking reasons Crosiers. Heck Crosiers even stole one of the old OS profiles (MSV2 Spitifre, not to mention paramedic etc). Then they introduced completly strange and stupid Infirmary, just to introduce some expensive/difficult to link doctor to various links (becouse heaven forbid we could use Hospitaller Doctor profile for that xD). Heck, they could even make "Hospitaller 2nd battalion" or something to make only doctor linkable to various other units.... Thats step back. OS were overcosted and instead of putting their price (heck even that 11 pts would be fine), instead of introducing Crosiers is .... just stupid. Especially if CB complained about SKU bloat etc. Srsly ? Even on the old forums there were various suggestions what to do. Why couldn't you just give blitzen profile to OS ? Why introducing not needed artifical units like Crosiers or Infirmaries (and wasting such cool order as St. Lazarus on so boring and bland unit) ? Why adding Infirmaries to game if you have problems with giving proper role to already exisint MI in Black Friar ? The only specialized OS are guys with Auxbots. And they are only special due to their Auxbots. Tell me how the fuck is 18pts OS Hacker special ? (except for the price) You already took MSV2 Spitifre to Crosiers, and "special" profiles to Trinitary Terciares (actually a good thing) OS are now glorified Auxilia. They are technicly Auxilia as you would only take single profile which can make sense (HRL Auxbot), rest of OS profiles rot in hell. You ask for "specialization" yet the OS Hacker Auxbot has not been even given repeater xD Move the OS HRL + Auxbot to Crosiers so I can get this amazing profile for 2 pts cheaper and delete OS. Just like you killed Magister so Teutons can take over their role/profile, and called it a day. Half assed solutions are the worst. tldr; Corvus Belli made a step forward and immidiete step back.
While I generally agree with your assessment that we don't really need to have 3 separate units out of Order Sergeants in the first place, fixing existing Order Sergeants would be much better than introducing Crosiers that overshadow them in almost every regard - we kinda have to deal with whatever is the current situation and try and propose a viable solution to the CB as compared to righteously lamenting about their past mistakes. This, probably, would have a much better chance of going through, as they can't simply stop producing recently released boxes or make units obsolete as they are without providing a viable alternative (i.e. Father Knights who coexisted with KoJs for a while and then got axed since KoJs are just a better version of FKs) As of now, we still have an OS box and we don't really have a Crosier box (unless you want to buy the whole MO Action pack every time you want to get Crosiers), and the Crosier box is nowhere near on the release plan. It's only fair to imagine CB will keep OS around for a while until they get the Crosier box (likely with MSR and Hacker options) out. Then it seems rather likely that OS will get cut/merged into Crosiers (the only tricky part is dealing with the Auxbots, ofc.). Would you consider that a step forward? And yet I agree that the current OS solution is half-baked at best. My whole point is to give them better treatment than they currently have rather by defining a better support/command role for them that would be synergetic with existing Crosiers and/or Knights (or even gun bots). They were a very important, a crucial part of MO's history and they do deserve love no less than other units. Yes, they are overcosted for their 13 points price, but that could be tolerated provided they do something different than Crosiers, something that would warrant their existence. You see, we have plenty of bloated units that are still taken nonetheless, as their benefits overweight their disadvantages: - Knight Commander has both redundant combi+lsg combo and a buffed but underwhelming CC capability which will not really make him stand up against CC assassins; yet we take him since it's an Lt that can be hidden rather well, keeps Crosiers link-happy and provides extra Lt orders for our NCOs - Black Friar HRL (and in general any BF) has a redundant Sixth Sense (which is easy to get in the link anyway), extra points of CC, expensive - but the ARO he provides in the link is just too good to pass on regardless, so it's one of the most popular choices for MO nowadays - Knight of Santiago Spitfire Lt used to be a bit on the expensive side for 43 pts compared to other knight orders like Teutons, Montesas and Hospitallers, has a not so useful 360 visor, Dodge+1'' and disappointing MA Lvl 1, but he is literally a swiss army knife Lt that can do just about any mission with his equipment, link with any fireteam, spray mimetic models with Nanopulser or kill them in CC, explode objectives, press buttons, hell even cost 0SWC for BS14 HI Spitfire - so I'm still considering him in my lists even after the fireteam changes So, why can't Order Sergeants get a similar counterweight for their drawbacks? Something to make them interesting and playable? Doesn't even have to be anything that would make them OP or an auto choice, just give us a reason to bring them in. Considering the other existing units in MO, I'm more than sure that CB is capable of doing it. That would be so much better than just axing them.
There is no need to axe the Order sergeant and their split was a good development in my opinion, maybe they need further development but, their role is solid in MO's.
I also think, that OS should read like this: Order Sergents (Croissier) As the MO action pack was released, I wondered why the OS were not substituted by the new Croisers like they did it with FK/KoJ or Magisters/Teutons. They looked a bit deplaced. Their profiles unattractive comapred to the Croisers. Now OS can have their own Haris, but otherwise it is very unattractive to use them in mixed cores. If you look for that nice MSV/HRL ARO BF you´re still without composition bonus. Currently MO is not able to field a full core fireteam with comp bonus. Their are simply not enough models available and I do not speak of (nor I am willing to) buy doubles, wich would be quite expensive, as you can get the Crossys only in a 100,- € pack. We have three Crossies, the Knight Commander and that (ugly) unique looking Konstantin that is an old mini in an old DF box. This is the only way to play a full core comp fireteam without proxing. And you will expose your KC because you do not have a plausible mini to field him with active holomask, that will not be a big sign called Lieutnant. I think that is pretty bad and I for myself will stick with a mixed team. It could have been so easy to avoid this situation. And I support the idea of putting some small but useful skill on the OS. Like the above mentioned No.2, or a repeater on the HDs auxbot. When I look at the Crosiers profiles there are not much what will bring new minis - only the sniper is missing and maybe an extra mini with the obligatory medikit pistol (its not funny, that most of the doctors aiming with their kits like they actualy would shot at the enemy, except the crazy Muktar that tries to shoot the ground beneath him) or even one armed with the Blitzen that, in case of some Tofus is sometimes a Flashpulse ... ;-)
I see no purpose for there to be a "line trooper" and a "slightly different line trooper" - merge them together IMO. Even the Auxbot ones honestly. And not that they would, but keep the name "Order Sergent" - its iconic and I prefer it immensely to Crosier. Profiles need to earn their keep, and being a "Crosier that costs a little bit more and has an Auxbot" or "Crosier that costs a little bit more and has slightly different link options" is not enough to justify a seperate unit. Better to merge them. Edit: Did not see above post. I would not consider "Crosier that costs a little bit more but has No.2" or something similar as different enough either. Just roll all that shit together.
I disagree, the initial order sergeants are a testament why "merge them all together" is the worse idea possible, they are what they should be in the army list, I will agree they could be something more different and specialized than what they are now.
