First of all, I want to say that I do like the new fireteam rules and the impact it has on list creation. However, I think some of the fireteam options were designed poorly, mainly due to how things were released when the faction was focused on by CB. I'm sure other factions may have this issue too, but I am going to focus on the Spetskorp fireteam for the TJC sectorial. So, this sectorial lets you have up to 5 grenzers and/or 5 cheerkillers to create either Duos, a Haris or a Core. While the full bonus Haris is feasible with a box of Cheerkillers and Grenzers along with Wildcard Raoul(who counts as a Grenzer), its incredibly hard to build a full powered Core team that this fireteam offers. This is due to a conflict between the TJC design philosophy and the purpose of the new fireteam. When TJC was getting releases, many were excited for a grenzer box release. At first it was odd that the Grenzer with the basic load out appeared in the Securitate box. A Grenzer box was never announced. Then when Cheerkillers were announced, and they had the Grenz/ML model, it was confusing. Right about this time CB changed the TJC list and got rids of the Grenzer Core, and saying Grenzers were going to be wildcards into every team. They even used this to justify the addition of the Grenzers in the boxes of the previous releases. Fast forward to this fireteam update, and we got the Spetskorp. The synergy in this team is gone. Its not Real-Life economical to buy so many boxes to make the Grenzer Core link work. Maybe its possible for cheerkillers. From a game standpoint, this fireteam is trash compared to what Securitates and Hollow Men can do. Particularly Hollow Men, because you get a little more power for only a little more expense. I believe the way to fix this is to give everything under the Spetskorp fire team option(Grenzers, Cheerkillers, and Fiddler), the Spetskorp trait, and perhaps give Raoul FTO the Spetskorp trait too. Another fix would be to release a Grenzer box, but considering CJC is Code One and that is the sectorial CB is giving all the new stuff to, that seems to not be happening in the near future. Well that ends my rant. Happy gaming everyone.
Grenzers are in a really shitty situation. Once a glue of the sectorial...now a core spread in a 3 different boxes. I know it's wishful thinking but a repack plus missing profile would be nice.
The MSR is still a BS 17 monster both actively and reactively. I'd hardly describe that as a shitty situation when nearly every other big hitting link team has lost the same amount of BS or costs significantly more. Most pure links are still on pretty bad/even odds against it.
I was talking about Grenzer miniatures and their core link. Three miniatures are spread in a three different boxes. If you wanna run full core link...it's gonna be expensive Af and red fury profile is still missing.
But you can reliably get a BS 18 MSR out of the Securitate fireteam now, and then switch over the HMG when you need to move up later in the game,
but is it worth it? is a slightly bigger number worth giving up the utility of some the other options especially when it allows you to efficiently use army slots as opposed to wasting them on four idiots that give you nothing but a marginal increase. Unless you get it naturally I dont think it's worth chasing the pure bonuses.
Agreed! I think this update is a bigger power shift than people are realizing. Some of these new mixed teams have so much utility it beats going out of your way for +2 BS. I think this is doubly the case for sectorials that can field 2 haris teams.
I can't draw a line from the complaints in the OP, through to the solution of "give TJC it's 4 cheap dudes + apex sniper pure link back" honestly. They just took this shit out of the game man.
Not sure the Grenzer is an apex sniper without a pure 5-man link. Its a nice sniper option, but there are stronger sniper links out there. You can still pull off the Kamau link in Varuna(with MSV2) for 113 pts, where as the Grenzer link will cost you 148-ish pts for the same effect. That's close to half your army for a defensive option, and is quite bad IMO. Not to mention the Grenzer sniper is really only useful in the TJC links, as in Vanilla you are better off with Knauf at same points cost, or if you can go a little more expensive, La Muet. Honestly, its not even about the power levels of the various links. The Grenzers role in TJC links was to be a wild card and that is how CB marketed them. And I'm not suggesting they be allowed to empower all the fireteams, as you can still take 2 wild card Grenzers in others, but rather just make the Spetskorp more of an option than it is now. Even with the change, I do see Core Securitate teams and Core hollow men teams to be the superior choice, but its nice to have options.
Am I missing something here? You propose giving cheerkiller and grenzer a shared label and so pure link status. That would be bringing back a 4 cheap dudes and apex sniper link. Mixed or grenzer links arent part of that discussion.
Because I'm not looking at it just for the apex sniper link. Its not like they were removed form the game anyway, they still exist. Cheerkillers are a mid range unit with low utility as it is, so such a link in TJC wouldn't be as crazy as a 4 Securitates and a Grenzer link. (which loses +1 BS, and you can argue is better)
The Cheerkiller+Grenzer link is a mixed team as well. The only way to maximize the grenzer MSR is to go full Grenzer core (with optional Raoul in it, which doesn't make it cheaper). You can do it, it's just expensive and not the same cheap castle as before. In a way though, it's similar to Bolts, only that Bolts are cheaper and can put a 17pt Machinist in there and stay pure. No idea how much mileage something like this would have for its points:
Its still a BS 17, MSV1, 6S, multi sniper in a mixed team. That is still a VERY good ARO platform. Its just not as dominating as it was and you are no longer more likely to loose if you go up against it.
The grenzer MSR M is still a great profile and very usable in varius teams. The problem is with the other profiles or the lack of it. First, profiles are few points more expesive than other similar troops. Just compare them to Bolts or Wildcats. Another problem is lacking a cheaper profile for team composition. Adding a boarding shotgun profile with some minor utility would go a long way. My fix would be dropping a point or two from all the profiles and adding some cheaper filler profile. Also I would change the red fury with something more useful. Right now 30 points for that profile is way to expensive. I don't kown why they changed spitfire to red fury.
MSV 1 + Marksmanship + BS13 was too strong to easily enable Grenzers, so it should be costly to field them as a pure core. They will do just fine as a Haris or mixed core – they are just not frustratingly strong anymore in a sectorial that is known for their proficiency in Infowar. If you wanted to make the pure link more accessible, take Marksmanship off the sniper to avoid MOD stacking. Then you can probably lower the cost on the other profiles closer to Wildcats. In case of Kamau/Bolts, these are PanO units, so they should be the ones dominating FTF. Elevating Grenzers to that level of shooting was a mistake in the first place. As for the purchasing side, that needs to be fixed asap. Either by made-to-order blisters or by combining the Grenzers into a separate box.
To keep the price the same when N4 came and their MOV stat for Medium Infantry upgraded. Grenzers suffer from the same problem as units like Tanko and Haidao, they were designed under a previous system to be a support unit to attach to another unit, Securitate in this case, without being designed to make their own pure fireteam. We can see this in the transition to N4 where the filler Grenzer profiles were deleted or had a bunch of rules added to them to inflate their cost. Now the mechanics somewhat unfairly punish these units specifically designed to slot into other fireteams without the option to build their own (or count for any others), so naturally they can feel a bit behind the times.
Marksmanship has nothing to do with the prices of other grenzer profiles. Bolts/Kamau have profiles worth 23/20 points which makes reasonably costed fireteam a possibility, grenzer can't do that. Agree on the points Triumph mentioned.
His point was that Nomads shouldn't have that tier of shooting, it belongs in other factions that are centered around a need of a direct approach to troubleshooting problems because they don't have access to smoke and white noise or the ability to hurl pitchers and missiles from one side of the table to the other. Take Marksmanship off the Grenzer MSR and then adjust other profiles so they can form a viable link of their own.
