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Thoughts on Vanilla Haqq in N4 [Lists and Discussion]

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by HeadChime, Oct 31, 2021.

  1. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Context

    I'm a long-time Haqqislam player, having started the game sometime around 2014 (roughly). I've played N4 since it released both in the real world and on TableTop Simulator [TTS]. I'm probably averaging about 2 games a week - so I'm easily getting to hundreds of games on Haqqislam in N4 now.
    I'd classify myself as a very good, but not absolutely top tier player. If I go to an event, play Haqqislam, and play to win then I'll likely go 2-1 or similar. A good winning record, but not top of the pack.
    I'm also a tournament organiser, having run multiple, large TTS events, so I've seen a lot of the N4 metagame develop.

    In this thread I wanted to talk about my thoughts on Haqqislam in N4, show some lists I've played, and explore how they've developed. It'll probably be a long thread. I also want to make it clear that these are my opinions based on my experiences. I'm sure others will disagree, and I'm totally open to that! I'm not presenting this as absolute authoritarian truth - just my observations.

    General thoughts on Haqq

    There was a lot of anxiety at the start of N4 due to the list-building changes (maximum of 15 troops and heavier units becoming cheaper). Some Haqqislam players were worried about diminished power-level and faction identity loss, as a result of a larger emphasis on gunfighting and less emphasis on spamming cheap warbands.

    My personal experience is that neither of these concerns have played out. I have personally piloted Haqq to top tournament / league finishes, and watched others do the same. Objectively, vanilla Haqq appears to be seeing good results. I also feel that Haqqislam is in a healthy place right now when it comes to strategy. Most lists contain a nice variety of cheaper trading pieces such as Daylami, and more expensive gunfighters such as Asawira or the Shakush. Yes, many lists have become very reliant on a few pieces (more on this at the end), but in a broad strategic sense Haqqislam in N4 is still playing like Haqqislam in early N3, but with some extra bits thrown in. Perhaps the most important thing is that I've been extremely satisfied with the faction as a whole.

    What's changed?

    First I want to think about the role of irregular troops in Haqq. With lists in N4 being capped at 15 troops, it's difficult to balance regular and irregular orders. Any irregular you take is a slot that won't generate a regular order, and this can have a negative effect on your attacking potential. Too many irregulars means too few regular orders, which means your attack runs have to be shorter. For me, this has emphasised the important of aggressive irregulars. If I take a Daylami and sit around doing nothing with it then in a real sense it really is costing me precious orders. But if I take that irregular order and start pushing with the Daylami then I've lost almost nothing. Therefore I find myself leaning on irregular troops like Libertos, Daylami, Zuleyka, and Hunzakuts. All of which can eat regular orders and be aggressive. They don't need to be passive! I've subsequently changed how I play Daylami. I tend to not throw them on a rooftop and have them be a static panzerfaust threat, but instead they now function as pushing shotgun pieces that threaten with templates. This means I can squeeze maximum usage from every single order I have available to me. I don't think N4 is particularly kind to lists that only use 11 of their 15 available orders (as an example).

    Secondly, I want to talk about trading pieces. The classic one-for-one piece trading of Haqqislam is difficult and unreliable in many situations now. I've had a Daylami panzerfaust one-shot a Shang Ji HMG, and I've had one instantly die to a Shang Ji HMG. I'm seeing more heavy infantry, and more TAGs, which makes these kind of cheap pieces feel more swingy. I actually think this has increased the value of these plays because the risk of a blow-out to your opponent is huge. However, I think the weapon requirements have changed. In my experience, many opposing units can take a chain rifle or shotgun and either dodge or survive. So for a trading piece, I'm looking more at the Ghazi with e/marat, or panzerfaust Daylami. The strategy is still there, but the weapons need to change because a simple chain rifle isn't going to cut it against something with PH13 and 2 wounds. I would also urge people to consider trading with dogged pieces. A liberto for example can approach a heavy infantry, throw two templates into it, take one wound and go dogged, and then deploy a mine before it dies. The value of dogged is that you often get two chances to threaten. This is extremely relevant on Ghazi and Kum bikers, if you want to approach opposing units that have multiple wounds.

    I think Fidays are much better than they used to be. This one is pretty simple for me. Deployment zones with 15 troops (N4) are much easier to penetrate than deployment zones with 20 troops (N3). Furthermore people are usually concentrating more power in a few expensive units, which means you can either go for cheap, vulnerable, order providers, or you can go threaten a heavy infantry, if possible. But Fidays still have some awful matchups. Particularly against any faction that can spam templates. However, the opportunity is there to really exploit min-max lists that have, for example, one huge TAG, and lots of flash pulse remotes. In those situations a Fiday can have a good time. One thing I have noticed is that Fiday plays are often quite poor on turn 1. If someone has a tight deployment with close combat troops and templates surrounding a TAG then you can rarely do much. But if you deploy in the midboard and threaten specialists or other stragglers, you can often have a disproportional effect and almost lock people into their deployment zone. Don't be compelled to make T1 plays with a Fiday if they're useless. Go with something more expendable, and just have the Fiday guard the midboard.

    Finally, I think Corvus Belli really tricked people with the Haqq changes, and everyone needs to adapt to this. At the end of N3 there were (reasonable!) calls to nerf jammers and bring some of the Haqqislam irregular troops into a more balanced state. They did this in N4, mostly. However, the trick is that they brought up Haqq gunfighters significantly. We lost a tiny bit in asymmetrical play, and gained a lot in raw aggression. Asawira are incredibly good now, Knauf is absolutely excellent, Zhayedan HMGs are great, the Azrail is ridiculous, and the Shakush is extremely playable. People need to understand that a Haqqislam player has access to a pseudo BS15 HMG (Zhayedan). We have access to a BS13, mimetism, MSV, red fury (Mukhtar), or multi-sniper (Knauf). Early on in N4 I started taking these gunfighters and having great success. It's fantastic to have the option to play with raw aggression, or with more subtlety. N4 Haqq lists can absolutely do both, and I think everyone should understand this.

    My list philosophy

    When I build a Haqq list right now I want to be able to take part in most aspects of the game. I want some hacking. I want gunfighters that can crack TAGs. I want some mimetism+MSV gunfighters. I want some cheap irregulars to harass things. And I want skirmishers. Haqqislam, to me, is a faction that can do everything, and I want to take advantage of that. I'm seeing a lot of mimetism around, and a lot of heavy armour around too. So AP, MSV, close combat, and templates are all valuable to me.

    I do not generally value specialists that much right now. The vast majority of missions don't place too much emphasis on them, and classifieds can generally be achieved without them. In the case of classifieds you can always take Secure HVT and then hope for another card that doesn't need a specialist. For example, if you have two classifieds then you can replace one with Secure HVT and that leaves you needing to achieve one out of the four other cards. Usually this is not a problem. If a mission like Countermeasures, Unmasking, or Supplies comes up then I usually tweak my list slightly to include more specialists. But generally speaking I don't prioritise them.

    My lists

    In this section I want to talk about my lists in N4 and how they developed. I've actually deleted a lot of my early lists, so I'm trying to remember them going off notes I wrote to myself. I think I have them 99% correct, but there might be one or two things I've missed.

    Let's start with one of the first lists I used in N4:


    Early List
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    ROUHANI Submachine Gun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    So the idea here was to make use of a strong core of gunfighters, and then go reasonably hard on hacking with the double Barids + Hunzakut (repeaters). I was excited about the spotlight changes at the beginning of the edition, hence having two hackers. I also wanted to try Knauf, because a burst three multi-sniper with MSV and mimetism really filled a hole that Haqq had before with flexible, long-range guns. Knauf answers mimetism threats AND armour, which seems great. I also wanted an Asawira LT so that my LT orders could be used aggressively every turn. This made the Farzan with Chain of Command feel necessary.

    This list worked really well but I became irritated with two things. I felt that the Liberto was wasted in group 2, and the double Daylami were too static for my liking. I wanted some irregulars that were a bit more active. I also grew frustrated with the Mukhtar's red fury at the start of the edition (when I saw a lot of heavy infantry).

    List two:


    List two
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    MUKHTAR Viral Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    So I made a couple of changes to list 2. As the Mukhtar red fury was frustrating I tried the viral rifle. This felt really good because it was pretty effective against the new Ariadna threats (bears in particular - though sometimes a lucky smoke would stop it). I moved the Liberto into group 1, to give it more orders to play with, and changed one of the passive Daylami to a more active Ghazi. I removed the Hunzakut and started to use co-ordinated orders to fire pitchers with both my Barids, which worked really nicely. (Remember co-ordinated orders with targetless weapons in N4 allows you to target different points! So each repeater could end up in a different place). I also started playing two Fidays because I was getting good use out of them.

    But still, a few problems. The chain of command on the Farzan felt like an annoying tax. Particularly now that I had so many active turn pieces, because I wasn't even using the Asawira that much. Between Knauf, two Fidays, a Liberto, and Zuleyka, I didn't need the Asawira to be so aggressive. Furthermore, with so many attackers and two irregulars in group 1, I found myself a bit low on regulars. Doubly so if I went first. So I needed to change that. I also found the Ghulam doctor underwhelming. Sometimes it healed Knauf, but mostly Knauf died outright. In a sample of 10 games he healed once. So I went off this profile because it just wasn't doing anything. Finally the Ghazi with e/marat was a good idea, but without smoke it wasn't making it up the board reliably. Again, I needed to change things.

    List three:


    List three
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    SHIHAB REMOTE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    FARZAN (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)

    6 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    This is probably the greediest list I wrote. The Asawira LT without chain of command was a real risk! But my reasoning here was that I had good ARO coverage with the mines and total reaction remote, and I had lots of other pieces to use before I brought the Asawira out. Caring less about my LT allowed me to take the Farzan with rifle, which is a really solid infiltrating specialist and gunfighter. This list still had a problem with regular orders but I solidified my plan into attacking with things like the Liberto first, so that I could make active use of the irregulars. This meant that I suffered less regular order attrition when my turn 1 attack pieces died. I replaced the Mukhtar with a Shihab because I wanted something with more reactive punch, and that could threaten aggressive pushes a little more (for example Ariadnan bears). Yes the viral rifle Mukhtar was nice, but the reactive power of the Shihab was compelling. Four shots in ARO gave more reliability against those smoke throwers, and it was a good way to put off deployment zone jumps from Mirage 5 (360 visor / total reaction). It wasn't there to kill things, but rather to slow down nasty turn 1 pushes, and be a backup active turn piece. Anyway, this list gave me a lot of active kill potential with Knauf and the Fidays, and the Libertos allowed me to attack on turn 1 with something very expendable, which was great.

    However the list still had a serious problem with regular orders. I wasn't very comfortable just 9 regular orders turn 1 (Nadhir in hidden deployment meant I lost an order). Furthermore the double hackers were beginning to get a bit tricky to justify because I was seeing more firewalls around, and more lists that ran fewer heavy infantry. The meta was stabilising and the early rush for TAGs and HIs had ended. This also made the e/marat Ghazi a little less valuable, and I was finding it too order intensive to get to where it needed to be anyway.

    My current list:


    Jackal Squad [No Exclusion]
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 36)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE Chain Rifle(+1B), Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (0 | 14)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    GHULAM (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    This is my current list. I really enjoy playing it and I feel it's just the right level of greedy.

    I'm going to go through this list in some detail.

    • Knauf and the Asawira have been near-constant picks for me. They're both great gunfighters and give me fantastic board presence. Knauf forces my opponent to keep their troops hidden, which is amazing for pieces like Zuleyka that want to advance. The Asawira is quite tough and can start to cause problems in the midboard on turn 2 onwards.
    • As the meta developed I started seeing a return to old-style lists that were heavy on utility and light infantry, instead of lists that just spammed heavys and TAGs. The Mukhtar came back to my lists because it really answers a few common problems, such as getting locked out of shooting by lucky smoke AROs. It's a great peice for bullying weaker infantry too. I tend to combo the Mukhtar with Zuleyka and they advance together, throwing smoke and shooting.
    • I've always stuck with double Fiday but they are not usually turn 1 plays. If the opponent is sloppy in deployment then one of them will push (usually Al Djabel), and sometimes I have won games on turn 1 with this move. However, mostly my Fidays were placed near to the opponent's deployment zone to encourage them to waste time removing them. I actually find that the threat of Fidays is more compelling than their actual results in a lot of circumstances. So I usually let my opponent's anxiety betray them. This means that I do not spend orders on suicidal Fiday attack runs, but instead I leave the opponent to waste orders discovering and killing them themselves. Of course if there is a gap for them to abuse, then I will take it. If the opponent really screws up then co-ordinating both Fidays into their deployment zone can be gross.
    • The Liberto is my most common attack piece at the moment. With dogged and an irregular order, it's great at pushing and costs me no regulars when it dies. This is fantastic. I usually move-move, using camo as a shield, and then start move-shooting from then on. I usually want to go and annoy light infantry with mimetism that'll be threatened by the double shotgun templates. Once it goes dogged I deploy a mine and accept death, hoping that the mine will cost my opponent an order to deal with.
    • The krakot is a recent inclusion. I'm going to be honest here. Rolling dice is fun, and therefore metachemistry is fun. In all seriousness, for 14 points you get something that punches above its weight, and crucially it gives you a template weapon with speculative fire (grenades). I don't use speculative fire often, but in a sticky situation it's great. This gives the list something it didn't have at all before.
    • A single Barid hacker, because hacking is still good, but I've calmed down from my two hacker phase. There are a lot of lists that will out-hack two barids, or just ignore them. So I cut my losses and went down to a single Barid.
    • The Ghulam LT is really cool. +1 command token lets me convert more irregulars to regulars and therefore get more orders, or co-ordinate more. When the Asawira was my LT I either paid a lot for chain of command, or was too scared to use it because I had no chain of command. I also found that with my Asawira at the back it really didn't get targeted that often. Switching to the Ghulam lets my Asawira be more aggressive, and given that my LT has rarely been targeted so far, it's not a massive risk. To offset some risk I run a second Ghulam decoy.
    • The Hunzakut is there because its irregular order can be spent on a deployable repeater or a mine. This saves me the command token that I used to use in my prior lists to co-ordinate my Barids to get repeaters down. It's also just a great skirmisher that can go on attack runs.Cheap utility pieces are important to me. It can attack things and you won't care if it dies, or you can just deploy a mine every turn.
    • Zuleyka is my turn 2 pushing piece when the Liberto dies. I tend to use group 2 as a source of AROs and spare attack pieces. When an attack piece dies in group 1, I throw something in from group 2 and just push again. The reason that I don't like Zuleyka on turn 1 is because she's best in close combat, but can struggle to penetrate a deployment zone. So I like her more when units have pushed forwards (i.e. turn 2 onwards).When the enemy formation is a bit looser and units are closer, it feels more efficient to push Zuleyka into action.
    • Finally the Nadhir is in the list consistently because it works for me. I usually take shots against targets that leave cover on BS15, and it often kills things. I've had it take out multiple members of a heavy infantry fireteam on more than one occasion. ARO pieces are safest if they can't be shot off the board, and hidden deployment allows the Nadhir to be very safe. I love it. Once it's on the board you can throw it in suppressive with the SMG, to cause headaches.
    Everything in my current list has a place, and a defined function. My philosophy is to use the least important pieces first, and exploit those cheap irregulars to go on early attack runs. People are often surprised to hear that I don't always push Fidays on turn 1, but this is because I want to be using those irregular orders, and if I sacrifice a bunch of regulars early in the game then I just mess up my later turns. Libertos are great at pushing, and a Hunzakut or Daylami with two or three orders (using a command token in group 2) is perfectly happy to prey on a skirmisher, moran, or flash remote etc. The list is about working with every resource you have, but starting with the most expendable.

    It's not the perfect list, and it undoubtedly has holes, but I like it a lot and I've spent a long time adjusting it to my own tastes and the kinds of things I see on the table.

    Problems with Haqq (Or perhaps my own problems)

    I've noticed a couple of issues that Haqq has throughout my N4 experiences. I have no doubt that many of these are "me" problems rather than "Haqq" problems, but I'll go through them anyway. As I said before, I'm sure people will have other experiences.

    • I can't really get away from using Knauf. He seems to be the most flexible gunfighter in Haqq by a large margin, in that he has MSV, can penetrate armour, has great rangebands, and respectable burst. I find that if I don't have enough guns then I can't play the mundane gunfighting game and efficiently take on ARO pieces without relying on tricks. So I want to take a gun that answers as many issues I might have as possible, and Knauf appears to be that.
    • In a similar way I also find myself almost always taking an Asawira and Zuleyka. Both obviously fill their own, unique roles. But they just feel so good and powerful to me. This isn't a problem because it makes Haqq bad, but it's a problem because I always have a few slots in my lists that are just instantly filled. I can't help but feel I should try something new, but when I do I can't find anything as impactful.
    • Defensive, more passive Haqq play can struggle in N4. Particularly against heavy infantry lists. Usual reactive threats such as chain rifles and mines can really struggle in these circumstances, and panzerfausts can be unreliable. Furthermore, use of irregulars for reactive threats can really hurt active turn order counts because you're taking these very passive irregulars that aren't contributing. Furthermore, there's a tension between wanting to hide your dudes so that you don't die to big scary HMGs, but if you hide too much then you can die to motorcycles and bears etc. I've found that actively pushing irregular troops into threats to chip off wounds and soften them up before the reactive turn can be very helpful. I've also found that it's necessary to diversify between softer ARO threats such as templates, and dedicated AROs such as the Nadhir, which want to take more direct action. This means that you have an option for different situations, but you're not spamming so many irregulars that your list suffers. But I find it extremely hard to balance these concerns and get good results.
    • I really struggle against high mimetism, high armour targets (Avatar in particular). Knauf is passable for this function, but not amazing. What I usually do in these situations is play around the threat and try to avoid it. However, in some missions, such as frostbyte, these threats need to be answered or the game is potentially lost. Sometimes I get Zuleyka to do the job, but sometimes she gets pushed back by warbands. In these situations it's really tough. In fact I've generally struggled against Avatar lists since N4 launched. But there are equivalent difficulties in other factions too, so it's not solely the Avatar.
    Ending

    I personally feel that Haqq is very strong in N4 but has changed a lot to how it was in N3. In particular I think list philosophy has changed. I try to squeeze every last resource out of my lists now, which means that I'm moving away from passive play with irregulars that solely function as ARO pieces, and instead moving towards more dynamic irregulars. This gives me maximum usage out of my order pool. Furthermore I also find that solely trading with cheap troops is inadequate in N4 due to the prevalence of heavy infantry and TAGs. I supplement my force with a core group of strong gunfighters to take a more active, traditional gunfighting role.

    I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts!
     
  2. Perzan

    Perzan Friendly neighbourhood Fiday

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    Great write-up. You know I stand by Saladin but we both have very similar view on pieces and their use.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Hmm. I really should put Knauf in some lists.
     
  4. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I really like him. Many people don't because he's fragile and can therefore be unreliable. But I find his price and power quite reasonable. I don't find he's too list warping at 32 points / 1.5 swc, and he does have the potential to punch well above his weight. I have killed many a TAG with Knauf.
     
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  5. Saitan247

    Saitan247 Well-Known Member

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    Just looked into his profile... It improved really. He looks really good as an active turn peace. I guess when the game progresses even as an ARO piece. As long he survives the first two rounds :D

    I really like the use of Zuleyka, besides being a great model, I like the approach of having her storming the front from the second turn on...

    Great post, thx.
     
  6. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for putting this up and walking us through your process. For high mimetism, high armour targets, have you looked at:
    1. Yara
    2. Ap Sniper Djanabazan?
    Maybe those could help?
     
  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Very useful writeup!

    You knew I was going to say this, but: for the tough targets like the high ARM Mimetism guys, I do love guided missiles. The Avatar will take a few more orders thanks to ECM, but throw enough orders at it and the job will get done. You'd need to free up the SWC for the missile bot, though - swapping the Liberto for a second Daylami would do the trick. But I think you're better at piloting Libertos than I am, so it might or might not be worth the swap.
     
  8. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post!

    I definitely agree on your point of Zulekya and asawira feeling like auto includes. I’ve also had a lot of success using the liberto as a major attack piece. I like that it can sometimes appear as a daylami and be a bit of a surprise when it goes on an attack run thanks to dogged and a high dodge.

    Since N4 I’ve really looked past the hunzakut due to the irregular limitation but you’ve made some strong points to reconsider them!
     
  9. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I'm fond of Yara and played her a lot at the start of N4 in test lists. I was impressed with her actually!
    She eventually got cut because I felt that, on balance, the Mukhtar Red Fury did more for me, personally. Now I realise that Yara and the Mukhtar fill different niches because Yara has AP and the Mukhtar doesn't. However what I found was that the Mukhtars better face-to-face odds (extra burst and mimetism) made up for the lack of armour penetration against medium armour targets (for example, an evader at ARM3 or a shang ji at ARM4). And obviously the Mukhtar is better against lighter stuff because, you know, extra burst, and mimetism. Against extremely high ARM stuff, Knauf is about equivalent to Yara (he hits harder and has mimetism, but slightly worse MSV).
    So on balance I found that Knauf is roughly as good against high-ARM, high-mimetism, and the Mukhtar is about as good against the low-ARM, and mid-ARM stuff too.
    Yara is cheaper than the Mukhtar and so that seems to be to be a super viable swap in my list. But I've started to crutch a bit on troops that have 2 wounds. I just like their suppressive fire potential. I really like things that can lose a face-to-face or take a template and just ignore it.

    The Djan is probably worse than Knauf? I would guess? I can't be sure, but having mimetism and burst 3 seems better to me than MSV2, no mimetism, and burst 2. I'm guessing.

    Absolutely. And I've played around with guided a little bit. I did feel that guided taxed my list because I kind of wanted two hackers. So it's 16/1.5 for the remote, and then 17/0.5 for the extra Barid. Maybe you can play guided with just one hacker? I don't know. I haven't really fully explored how lean you can make a guided list and have it still be viable. But my gut instinct was to want two hackers for a guided list and I didn't want to spend 33/2 on the remote + Barid package. Maybe that's foolish? I'm not sure.

    Yeah so, I think, for me personally, how I think about irregulars has changed in N4. I'm bothered a lot by these passive, reactive irregulars that sit around, guarding an area and cost you orders. I think they can be great, but you don't want too many of them or you're just robbing yourself of more active play potential. In fact, I justify my Daylami right now by usually putting them in a position where they could use the shotgun if I needed them to.
    But an irregular like a hunzakut, where you're going to be spending its order on a useful play every single turn, is great. A hunzakut with three orders can: move and deploy a mine, move and shoot, re-camouflage. Even just putting a hunzakut on suppressive in the middle of the board is great. At that point, it's almost a cut-price regular really. To me, anyway.
    It's hard to balance regulars and irregulars, but it's much easier if your irregulars are things you're going to actually make plays with constantly.
     
    #9 HeadChime, Nov 2, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
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  10. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    Yea great points on the passive ARO. I am finding that I prioritize my daylami deployment more on their shotgun more than their panzerfaust most of the time anyway and so it should mean a hunzakut will only have more potential as an active threat and similar potential as a reactive threat. Just had gotten too much in the habit of overlooking her this edition!
     
  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Best post I've seen on here in a while *slow clap*

    Good to hear that Haqq is still viable. I know I've spoken to a few people who figured since the old spam was dead it had no faction identity and could not function effectively. This writeup is a pretty definitive response to that.

    This is just what happens when you refine any faction enough. You'll end up with a mixture of units that are some combination of "best in show" and "best for your playstyle". As long as you keep this situation in your mind and occasionally try other stuff it's not a major issue.

    Edit: Also, if you are getting results with the libertos, I'd never recommend swapping it for a GML. I'm definitely of the mind that this is one of the best profiles in the game and if you are consistently leveraging it, you will be hard pressed to find something that can get the same results. Hell, my go-to Avatar list often left the 120pt TAG at home and spend most of its orders on this thing lol
     
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  12. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    As someone who's looking into vanilla Haqq (mostly because their models look so cool), this thread is super interesting, but it honestly also turns me off the faction a bit. If two of the best pieces of your army are generic mercs (Knauf & the Libertos), what's so fun about playing Haqq then? The Asawira, cool as the profile may be, is also not one of the models that looks very exciting to me.

    Is there anyone here who plays any of the other profiles, like Nahabs, Azrails, Djanbazans, etc.? Or are those only relevant in their respective sectorials?
     
  13. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    While yes, Knauf & Libertos are nice, they are definitely not essential for Vanilla Haqq. 90% of the time I would choose a Daylami over the Liberto. Vanilla has a lot of wonderful pieces that were mentioned in this thread. I love Hunzakuts. Fidays every day! Farzans. Druze Killer Hackers. Muktars. Djanbazan HMG is basic but gets work done. Barids are amazing. Zuleyka is wonderful. FO Lasiq is a great dangerous piece. And both TAGs have different uses.

    The OP also mentioned Azrails and I feel they work great with a good hacker network: Immobilize the target and then get a normal roll to annihilate it. Others had good use with Nahabs
     
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  14. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Welcome to the forums.
     
  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I use the Azra'il HMG, ever since this thread: Active turn numbers for vanilla | Corvus Belli Community Forum. Even more so, the Shakush HMG. I've tried Knauf, and he's great, but I find the big guys suit my playstyle better. The Azra'il looks like a nice and distinctly Haqq sculpt if you can get your hands on one, and the Shakush promises to also look great if they ever get around to sculpting it.

    That said, neither of them offers a distinctly Haqq play experience - they're both just big armored HMGs. You can always eschew the big guns and play all skirmishers - and you'll find advocates of that approach on here - but imho you're crippling yourself if you refuse to take any of our great long-range shooting options. If you do want to go that route, you might prefer HB over vanilla.

    If there's distinct vanilla Haqq feature, I'd say it's probably the emphasis on irregulars. Zuleyka, other Kum, Daylami (like @Brokenwolf I prefer them over Liberto), Hunzakut. And Saladin to shuffle them all around. Those are all pretty nice-looking and distinctive models, too.
     
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  16. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this great post! It is packed with value by clearly laying out before and after N4, backed by solid experience. It also touches several tough topics i.e. active turn pieces, ARO strategy, irregular balance, lower specialist counts, high armor and hard to hit targets. Bravo!

    I learned something here. How to best utilize irregular orders and low specialist count is okay. Some of these view points fly in the face of some of the members here which makes me giggle. lol

    Also, your list reflects a very value based focus, which how I envisioned a non sectorial list would need to look. It’s clear a guiding strategy in the list is “good offense is good defense.”
     
  17. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It's the skirmishers that really make Haqq function. Lots of people will play lots of different active turn guns, but that's really not where the meat of the faction is. Farzan, hunzakut, daylami, fidays, and that kind of stuff is what Haqq's all about.
     
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  18. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    @HeadChime

    You post and breakdown of your thought process and refinement of Haqq is fantastic. I’ve favorited this post and even refer others to it every once and a while.

    With the recent changes to Haqq I am curious to see what changes if any you will make to your current list.
     
  19. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Thanks for the kind words.

    I'm going to be testing Asawira + Mukhtar duo. Or Asawira + tac aware Namurr.
     
    #19 HeadChime, Mar 26, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2022
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  20. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    Please let us know your thoughts after you put them through their paces!
     
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