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Fireteam changes incoming

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    It's actually quite clear when you dig into it for a moment.
    And it's good to have a "generic set" of FT rules, rather than the actual mess that was built release after release.

    More minis? More bonuses (but less than before for a link of 5).
    More coherent minis? Even more bonuses (and in the end, more than before).

    With in addition the possibility of giving a particular FT a bonus, a flavor (the useless jungle terrain for example).
    I really, really like it.

    It seems to limit a bit the "nonsense" FTs with like an alguacil and four wildcards. Or at least giving others options. Not by forbidding these FTs, but instead by giving even more bonuses to "coherent" FTs. You want the best FT bonuses? Ok, but you have to give up a bit on flexibility for that... You want top-notch flexibility? No +3 BS for you. It all make sense to me.

    I also love the +3 discover bonus for pure 3-members FT, very interesting for a camo-hunting dedicated FT. Or for enhanced discover capacities on that defensive 5-members FT [EDIT : already was the case, won't be in the future for mixed FTs, sorry!].
     
    #501 Child9, Mar 23, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    We won't know for sure until the pdf comes out, but from the slides it looks like the 5-member coherent team will still get +3 to Discover, same is it currently is. Mixed teams will no longer get the Discover bonus.
     
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do not find anything confusing or difficult in the new fireteam rules, lets see the provided example.
    [​IMG]

    You can make a Morat fireteam, top right of the image, the unit can be composed by the units listed, Morat, Kurgat, Suryat, Kaitok, Yaogat, Dartok, Rindak, Kyosot, Zabuk.

    I do have to point out that the concept of "Morat Vanguard fireteam" does not exist, its a Morat Fireteam, a Tarlok Fireteam, a Rodoks fireteam ectr.

    The minimum number of models from each unit that the fireteam can consist is the left column, the right column is the maximum models the unit can consist, the required attribute means that at least one model from at least one unit from those required (Morat, Hurgat, Suryat, Kaitok, Yaogat) is needed to form the fireteam, for example a single Morat vanguard, models marked as counting as Morats (Morat, Kurgat, Suriat, Kaitok, Yaogat, Dartok) provide full composition bonuses, if models not marked as "Morats" (Rindak, Kyosot, Zabuk) are included in the fireteam the composition bonuses are lost.

    As always the type of fireteam limits how many models the fireteam can consist of and the sectorial limits how many fireteams the sectorial can consist of.

    So as an example you could have a Core Morat fireteam with 2 vanguards, a Kurgat, and 2 Suryat that has composition bonuses (alternatively a Morat core could be made with a single vanguard a Dartok, a Rindak, a Kyosot, and a Zabuk with no composition bonuses), a Haris Tarlok with two vanguards and a Dartok that has composition bonuses and a Haris Hungries of two Oznat and one Preta with no composition bonuses.

    But you could not have a Morat duo with a Dartok and a Zabuk as neither has the required attribute for the fireteam creation and a single model with the required attribute is needed for a Morat fireteam creation.

    Wildcards can be added to any fireteam if the fireteam but depending on what they count as (if they count as) it can affect the composition bonus, for example adding Anyat (she counts as Morat) to a Roddoks Haris will strip them of their composition bonus

    And this is the extent of the complexity, fireteam composition goes.
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    3+ member coherent teams get the +3 Discover bonus now. No discover bonus for mixed teams.
    img_2_1648057205467.jpg
     
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  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yes exactly. The 5-member coherent team in the post I was replying to won't get an enhanced Discover beyond what it already has in the current rules.
     
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  6. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Damn, you're right, I totally forgot about that and I've been playing it wrong since I went back into Infinity, thanks!
    This makes me realize a 5-Unidron link make Discover rolls at WIP+6. Yummy!
    Anyway, it's good that this is now an achievable bonus for a "pure" 3-men link :)
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure, but the question is what all that complexity buys you. Does it really matter when the noninteraction game is the way to go?

    The other thing is that Morats aren't exactly a designer favorite faction - what will Haqq or Nomads sectorials get as their fireteam bonus? Mimetism? Total Immunity? lol
     
  8. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I also think it's worth pointing out that the change to pure teams means that 4 man links aren't an entirely pointless endeavour, with decent bonuses even if you choose to omit the last man (which potentially becomes more relevant when you do opt for those more expensive pure teams). Furthermore, the more granular nature of the bonuses means that if you do drop from a 5 man link to 4, you aren't as hooped on your bonuses.

    We'll have to see the full charts and rules to get the full idea, however. This could either go to encourage more thematic list designs while addressing some serious design issues in N4, or it could end up being an absolute mess that guts the already underperforming while not properly dealing with the more oppressive elements on the table. It's hard to say.
     
    #508 Weathercock, Mar 24, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
    Abrilete, SpectralOwl, saint and 2 others like this.
  9. Cranky Old Man

    Cranky Old Man Well-Known Member

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    I think core linked msv2 snipers with sixth sense are still going to be tough. Grenzer with marksmanship in a core of securitate still hits on a 17 I think
     
  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    And sniper castles should be tough. They are meant to be a strong defensive investment in defense that goes beyond the cost and measures of a cheap minelayer or flashbot. They just shouldn't be oppressively dominant as a fireteam design, and they shouldn't be an absolute drain to play against. Similarly, they shouldn't be disposeably cheap for the potency they provide.
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It might not hurt to remember some of the issues that show up in TTS don’t on actual tabletop, and vice versa. So, something that might feel overly oppressive in one isn’t in the other, and CB likely focused on actual tabletop in drafting these rules.
     
  12. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly my main worry. Looking at what Nomads and specially Corregidor gets now, i shudder at the thought of individualized random extra bonuses for some Sectorials just because someone at CB has a RPG character from that faction.
     
  13. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Is this a correct understanding of the new fireteam rules from the Morat fireteams video?

    • Fireteams are either coherent or mixed
      • Coherent denotes teams made up of units with a matching Label, such as "Morat". Not necessarily models that are identical (IE 5 Fusiliers)
    • Fireteam bonuses are different from before.
      • Mixed teams have +1 Burst / Sixth Sense / +1 BS
      • Coherent teams get that and get +3 Disc / +1 BS / +1 BS
    • Armies have access to differing numbers of fireteams. For instance, Morats can have 1 Core, 2 Haris, infinite Duo. Other armies may have different numbers.
    • Certain types of Coherent fireteam give out a new skill. The only current example being Jungle Terrain.
    Two things I'm uncertain about
    • Wildcards can join anything and are fine for coherent fireteams if they have the right Label
    • Are there "generic fireteam core" anymore? Or is it purely "Morats have Fireteam Morat and Fireteam Tarlok, a Fireteam Morat can be made of any combination of those models and a fireteam Tarlok can be made out of any combination of these models"
    Have I missed anything here?

    If the fireteam rules work as I think they do, I believe this to be a huge buff to fireteams. Enormous chunks of each sectorial are getting a wildcard type rule. Link flexibility will be off the charts and I think that will be more useful than leaning heavily on some +3 BS dude or another
     
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  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Community - "Ubiquitous wildcard status of characters has completely broken whatever balance fireteams may have had!"
    CB - "OK, now entire units are effectively wildcards."
    Community - "..."
     
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  15. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    No, that doesn’t appear to be what happened. Instead, what happened was:
    - If you take the wrong wildcards in a Fireteam, you loose about half the bonuses.
    - The various wildcards will have tags specifying which fireteams they won’t cause the penalty for.
    And
    - As long as a “mixed” (penalized) Fireteam exists, it’s a lot easier to just let people put different units into it. (Like Morat starter box with 3 Vanguard in it, but you still have several different options for making a five man Fireteam…)

    Most of the X+4 wildacard situations are probably going to go straight to “Okay, you lose half your Fireteam bonuses” case. Isn’t that addressing the situation?
     
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  16. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
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    feels no real change, but the old +3 BS was shared among several number of members!

    Potato = Potaito

    the real change it´s the discorver +3 and well the specific FT abilities that could be a spice to make things different
     
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @WiT? As you said there is no "generic fireteam core" a fireteam Tarlok can be core, haris or duo and is composed from these models, a fireteam Hungries on the other hand cannot be Duo only Haris and Core and you are correct on wildcards, Fireteam special rules are given to the fireteam regardless of composition coherency.

    @Luisjoey You will have to see the fireteam tables per sectorial tomorrow before you reach this decision, but the easiest way to see a difference is a coherent/ pure fireteam core who looses its first member retains its +1BS as a 4 member fireteam core.
     
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  18. Urist

    Urist Well-Known Member

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    I think you're interpretation is mostly right. Only note I would add to it is that Carlos said the fireteam rules (like Tarlok bonus) are going to be mostly minor to add fluff to a fireteam. So probably expect things like Terrain (Aquatic) for the special Varuna fireteam, Terrain (Zero G) for the Kosmoflot fireteams, or Religious for the Ramah Fireteams. Nothing major or scary like Total Reaction or Mimetism for the whole fireteam.
     
  19. Sungwon

    Sungwon Well-Known Member

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    It does not have to be coherent. Hungries fireteam give bonuses to make them regular and lose impetuous, so I think there can be other mixed fireteam with some bonuses.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No, Carlos said specifically that Jungle Terrain on Tarlok fireteams wasn't very useful but it represented an architectural change that could be used to apply in his words "super powers or whatever" to a specific fireteam.
     
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