DTWs...

Discussion in 'Rules suggestions' started by wuji, Mar 17, 2022.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well no, because Fusilier could contest it with a BS Attack now it wouldn't be forced to Dodge anymore plus it means if you win a F2F the warband also probably stops attacking you.
     
  2. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And in this particular example, the Fusi would be shooting back on 12s at a minimum, assuming Cover for the Ghulam. It’s a bit of swings and roundabouts fir how we want to treat SGs. However, here, the change would make it simpler for Fusis.
     
  3. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    For my taste there are too many DTWs in the game. I played Aleph SP vs O-12 Starmada and everyone and their grandmas got a nanopulser (sometim with B+X wich active use is more than rare) or a chaincolt.

    Making them FtF is not a good idea - see the example above. And - I don´t know if someone has mentioned it - they could generate critical hits, wich makes them more dangerous as they are already.
     
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  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    That isn't really an argument against my point that DTWs would be stronger though. I get it, the idea is that at least the model would be in some kind of danger, but at the same time, the odds of inflicting a wound with a DTW increase as well.

    What happens is that the outcome becomes more lethal for both parties involved, whereas in the way they are right now there's a large chance of 'nothing happens'. I mean, if you prefer more lethal games, that makes sense. But it would make DTWs way stronger, and stuff like chainrifles or flamethrowers would become hilariously fun to use.
     
  5. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    My big issue with nerfing DTW, or changing terrain to affect DTW, is that the current game is so alpha heavy that we need to be very careful in any change that would reduce the effectiveness of defense.

    Is the best answer to busted offensive tools busted defensive tools? No. But I'd rather not fix one thing and make another thing potentially worse.
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's accurate in the majority of cases. While it might be true for something like a TAG wielding the DTW, the most common forms are either a Warband or someone using a shotgun.

    A warband if not put down, is going to move into CC in the next 1 or 2 orders and that's not a good thing for most models on the receiving end. If a Taigha is using the chaincolt that means the next order is pretty much guaranteed to be a Berserk.

    A shotgun already has the option to make a F2F roll, so this isn't really making it more lethal by giving units what is generally a better stat to contest it with, especially link teams that gain burst bonuses. A core linked Zhanshi is more likely to avoid damage if it can contest a BS17 warband attempting to Chain Rifle it with its own B2 BS17 combi rifle than making a PH10 dodge roll under the current system.
     
    #26 Triumph, Mar 18, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
  7. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    i must be lucky, the only time I've seen DTW ever used is dog warriors chainguns (or my riot stopper spam in N3) but that may be a factor the tables are made to resemble cities or cluttered loading docks with some good sight lines that rarely connect one dz to the other and traversal interiors. i mostly see high bursts smgs/M-pistols/rifles/spitfires, CC or shotgun slug mode used in close combat

    here's a random idea for a mid ground for sake of discussion; still keep the shootout a normal roll (for both sides) but DTW are a (lets say) BS+3 roll that ignores modifiers. if it succeeded its roll, it's resolved how DTW work now. fail, well its just another miss...

    alternatively (to continue to represent the high volume of outgoing firepower) though it gimps more expensive BS units' dtw, instead its (still a straight roll) a fixed target score (eg: bs =15) rather than a BS+3 mod
     
    #27 dhellfox, Mar 18, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The example was a warband which means Fusi is shooting on 15. If we are talking about Ghulam, you'll note that the Ghulam currently has the choice of doing direct attacks at BS+6 in the range we're talking about. In the sense of having a one on one this effectively means that the DTW is nerfed as the Ghulam has the choice of face to facing against a forced low-ph dodge removed.

    It is true that if the bonus is high enough it will make DTWs deadlier against fireteams where the fireteam is clumped up and obscuring each others LOF, but the flip side of that coin is that fireteams that do not do this will have a naturally higher defense against DTWs - particularly if they have DTWs of their own.

    I don't think the crit factor is significant enough to consider at high level design. If it were, you'd have people opting for pistol over DTW much more often.

    The one and only actual drawback I can see with this is that it moves the importance of PH away and makes it ever so much more a dump stat.

    I think it is more about how it informs unit selection and movement. With DTWs so prevalent you're not gonna want those high-cost single wound units that people call MI get too close to your opponent.

    I don't think it is so easy as to blame table layout. Even on quite open tables you typically see warbands running up to template stuff since it's a lot easier to suppress long range pieces on those boards which clears the eay for the Taigha et al.

    Also, what if they're technical weapons? Make WIP work (w)again.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's probably the most pertinent point.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
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