Do DTWs really need to be an auto hit or is +6 Range:DTW and the ability to hit multiple enemies at once, sometimes with more than 1 Burst good enough?
DTWs should remain the way they are. It’s not a flaw in the weapon, it’s the crutch of how we setup tables and terrain. We have tables where it’s far too simple for a warband with a Chain Rifle to lock down multiple approaches at very little risk, or to advance the same way. We’re better served shaking up our tables than changing the rules.
I'm curious about this approach. What kind of tables have you found/thought up that avoid this problem?
Longer fire lanes, providing cover rather than concealment, having cross table fire lanes (not DZ to DZ, but outside edge to outside edge), multilevel setups and provisions to move forward on those levels, open buildings to move through.
The argument that it's a table set up problem isnt something I would rely on, some people like more dense tables, others not, I dont want to nullify the use of DTW users because there's less terrain. That and cheap DTW users have the same chance of hitting as a more expensive one which means it's still the army with the cheaper DTWs has the advantage.
Seems like this thread has derailed already. I do think that the original explanation for the proposed change was not very clear and needs clarifying. Not sure what +6 Range DTW is intended to be? Do you mean you need a single roll at +6 to put down the chain rifle template? Does this oppose dodges or is it a normal roll? ( normal roll would give the target model 2 x chances to avoid the attack in the first place? Is the +6 Range DTW ignore mods for cover or Mimetism? All of these are questions that the original post does not explain, and this makes it hard to have a discussion about.
This is true if your goal is to piece trade, factions with cheaper DTW risk less while using them. However, if you are using them to force a bad decision on your opponent (it. Attacking model has DTW + another BS weapon with decent Burst) or the attacking model has high armour/decent wounds then it they would have the advantage over a cheaper DTW.
My experience has been that so many models have DTWs these days that it doesn't matter what weapons the attacker has. I'm certain the game will not be fun if everyone has the same stuff to balance the game nor is CB gonna do that part equally as well.
Disregarding all of the personal attacks (please @psychoticstorm take action), I'm with wuji on this. I would REALLY like if DTW lost the auto-hit and got a +6 BS Mod and a Ignore Mimetism and/or Cover. It would really bring those low point warband to their real value without ruining the game. And more FtFs than Normal Rolls is way better for the game
I need to apply 24h bans for some people to relax on their way of discussion. Next time that anyone immediately escalate so fast a thread, will receive more days ban. Be civil please. Thread cleaned, you can continue with your discussion, hoping you'll do in a civilized manner.
As always, my suggestion for this issue is to give the a few of the DZ-bound, elite 1W infantry (think Bao and Loup Garou) a skill that allows BS Attack to avoid damage from Templates, as per Dodge, against the target of the attack. Makes a lot of those old-style MI a lot more viable, and allows them to punch down effectively against midfielders like they're meant to without hurting badly-needed DZ defense too much.
Rather than a new skill, perhaps being freer with Mines and Minelayer on those kinds of profile, or even coupling Minelayer + FD for just the Mines could be a plausible solution. Being able to have those Mines waiting and able to hit DTW WBs before they get in Template range could function to do the same thing.
So, shift them back to N3? That wouldn't be a bad thing... And, personally, I still believe that first step should be re-assessing how we're setting up tables. It's fine if there are parts of the table where DTWs function really well, and other parts where an MSR slices and dices. If a WB DTW has made it all the way across the board to start trying ridiculous things with its DTW against my expensive troops/Fireteam/etc., then that WB has earned it, and is functioning as designed.
I think N3- shotguns are gone. I liked them, but they were definitely complicated. I would have the Shotgun when used in template mode, just require a +6 roll to hit instead of auto hitting. That would strengthen the niche of DTWs that auto hit. Right now, a light Shotgun is nearly always superior than a light flamethrower in the active turn. I do not think that should be the case.
I think it's a close run thing, personally, and that superiority is neither absolute nor a big gap between the two. The Continuous Damage and the ability for an Intuitive Attack on the LFL are points in favor. Also, I believe it's important to look at who is carrying an LFL versus who is carrying an LSG. Making SGs a Small Teardrop helps maintain that distinction between full DTWs and SGs.
I am looking it from the Haqqislam perspective. Right now, Naffatuns compare poorly with ghulams. 11 pt ghulams, with the exception of a niche use of grenades, feels superior to the 12 point Naffatun in the active turn. Statistically B2 D13 is better than B1 D13 continuous damage. To me, it just feels bad paying more for less. I like my basic naffatun model, but it the first thing I look to cut if I need to save a point. Removing the auto hit from shotguns would increase the value of the other DTWs and to me give the Naffatuns a purpose again (outside of link teams).
One thing I don't think people understand when suggesting that DTWs should be a FTF roll (with or without bonuses), is that it would make DTWs /stronger/. Think about it. If a BS11 warband chainrifles your fusilier, that fusilier has a 50% chance of dodging the attack, before rolling his armor save. If the same warband were suddenly shooting at the fusilier with a +6, we're looking at an FTF of 17 vs 10 where the Warband is much more likely wound. So, making DTWs a roll would make them so much more powerful it's not even funny. I mean, I loved the autoshotty Raicho at the tail end of N3, if that monster were to come back, I'd be very much happy. But I don't think anyone is asking for a buff to DTWs. The real problem nowadays is avaliability, not the rule itself. I could argue a much, much more powerful nerf to DTWs would be increasing their pts value by 1 or 2. Just that would make them less common. Of course, a solution would be a full roll back to N3 rules where shotgun templates were affected by visual mods, at which point it's visual mods that suddenly become even stronger than they're already as one of their soft counters is suddenly gone from the game. Really, the only solution I see for these issues is increasing cost. I actually think a full recost of gear and abilities would benefit the game, but that's approaching N5 already, and I find the notion of asking for a fifth edition to come out when it has barely been a year since we could actually play N4 to be just silly.