Hsien in vanilla ?

No, because the Daoying exists and so does the synergy with both Hac Tao and Krit, some times both at the same time.

 

I've tried the LT2 profile in two games and both games the results across multiple orders were kind of the same. His damage is just too low for the cost and weapon range too short to properly use any of the smoke Yu Jing produces without severely impacting order expenditure.
My thoughts are that when you're paying 50+ for a miniature, a Multi Rifle just doesn't cut it. You need MODs to force the issue on units that your MSV doesn't counter, or at least a high burst gun. I have my doubts about the MMMRifle profile as well, but haven't tried it.

As a footnote I am bewildered by how Stealth made a blip large enough that it merited specific removal.

 

I generally find that the +1 SWC doesn't make a difference at 300, as if you've spent the 50+ points on the Hsien you can probably choose all the SWC options you need and still probably come in at around 4 SWC.

The multi marksman profile works quite nicely in an ISS Zhanying link, but would certainly be more dependable if it was an AP spitfire for solo use. I've found it very useful for hunting lighter mimetism targets in midfield, but a little low damage for firefights with big hitters.

I want to love the LT2 specialist operative profile, but it's hard to look the extra range and tinbot of the MMR profile in the eye and decide to take my lieutenant on a long walk towards the enemy. Having said that, the 6-2 mov does mean a Hsien can get around the table pretty quickly these days. PH 14 and dodge+1" means mov->dodge means he has a very reliable dodge, averaging out to 8.1" mov, and sometimes managing to hop you past cautious mov gaps etc.

 

HMG Hsien is a fuckbeast. Not much more explanation necessary, he needs no friends or special concessions, he just does his job and does it well, and is difficult to assail with the conventional counters to high-end fire pieces. Mine could definitely use better dice, however.

MMR is a solid profile that suffers from some annoying fireteam restrictions in ISS in a constant case of 'almost but not quite.' As a solo piece in vanilla, it is competent but can be hard to justify for its point cost when you have so many great options available.

Lt2 Hsien is a waste. Daoying in vanilla completely outclasses it as an order generator, and vanilla has so many amazing NCOs to choose from. As a solo piece, it goes back to the MMR Hsien's problem but with an even more limited loadout. In ISS, its one gimmick can't even really be used to full effect because ISS has no way to make use of those Lt orders in a link that this profile really needs to be in.

 

I'd only really consider the HMG for Vanilla. The shorter ranges of the other two profiles mean that you need to expose the Hsien to the midfield, wasting orders on walking, reducing your ability to defend it and opening it up to shorter-range counters. That said, the HMG is still very good, as it can use Smoke offensively, kills most units in one order and can even be stood up for ARO if your opponent is down on hard-hitting units of their own.

 

I will try the Multi Rifle specialist LT+1 tomorrow instead of the usual Daoying+NCO combo, so I'll be able to give you some feedback on how it performed next week.

 

Here's the summary as promised: Vanilla YJ vs. Vanilla Haqq – The Armoury

Please be aware that we didn't play with very optimized lists, so take this with a grain of salt. My opponent started playing only around summer last year and still doesn't have that big of a collection, so I tend to tailor my lists to what he can field in a way that makes for a fun game.

YJ list

Spoiler

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GROUP 1 10 4
HSIEN (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Specialist Operative]) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (+1 | 54)
HÚLÁNG (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer]) Submachine Gun(+1B), E/M Grenades, D-Charges, Crazykoala / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 42)
MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29)
GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
TIGER SOLDIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / CC Weapon, Pistol. (0.5 | 13)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
GROUP 2 4 1 1
PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 28)
LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17)
LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17)
PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
4 SWC | 298 Points
Open in Infinity Army

Haqq list

Spoiler

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GROUP 1 9 1
TARIK MANSURI (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 57)
FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
LASIQ (BS Attack [+1 Dam]) VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
FASID Heavy Machine Gun, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher, Shock Mines / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 53)
GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
DJANBAZAN Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
BASHI BAZOUK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
HAWWA' (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
NAFFATÛN Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
GROUP 2 1 1
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
5 SWC | 299 Points
Open in Infinity Army

The game played out fairly even since both lists were similar in concept. The Hsien did perform pretty well in general and drew a lot of attention once it had entrenched itself in the objective room. It did die eventually to the combined attack of Tarik and the Al Fasid, but at that point I had collected two rounds worth of points to close out the win. The Hulang + Hsien proved to be fairly resilient inside the objective room as expected, but the CoC Pheasant was key since the Hsien could easily have died or get oblivion'd/jammed several times and I was pretty lucky to have him survive as long as he did. His BTS 6 definitely came in handy several times. Even with CoC in place, a wily opponent could make the LoL happen if he has access to an Impersonator, Duroc, Rayat or similar. The Killer Hacker Pheasant somewhat mitigated that due to the marker state, so she turned out to be a nice pick.

Overall I was quite happy with the Hsien and the other underdogs, but the mission admittedly played heavily into their strengths. Having 54 points on a S2 footprint is a nice feature for dominating the ZoC. Yes, I would have loved to also have the firewall [-6] on him, but +1 order and specialist were a nice offset. He even could open the gates himself, which was something I hadn't considered when I wrote the list. Not too pivotal, but it freed up the Guilang to do other stuff in my first turn, which was nice. Despite earlier doubts, I'm fairly happy with the Hsien and his 3 loadouts, because they all seem to offer something distinctive while having beastly base stats to back it up. I haven't tried the MMR yet, but I can see it work in a similar circumstance where it doesn't have to be the LT to make the most out of the loadout. The HMG is probably the most universally applicable one, but it seems they still managed to strike a nice internal balance here, which is something I do appreciate.

 

I like the Multi MMR it in ISS. I've used it quite some times with success. It's true that it has low damage and relatively low burst but being multi It can work even on TAGs with help of some smoke. In vanilla you need to be more careful and picky with it because in reactive is less reliable. You need mines and warbands to delay enemy efforts to hunt it. But it's not a primary piece of attack.

The HMG profile is more direct and easy to use, since it doesn't need to go deep on enemy lines to do some work, but it struggles on medium range even against combi troops.

I find both quite fragile units for the 50-60point bracket. some templates or shotguns and they're dead meet like the daofei. so be smart and protect him.

wow, bold statement there. I find more impacting in the orther expenditure the unreliable smoke from celestial guards or shaolins than the hisien peformance.

I've played some games at 0cap and MMR hsien is just quite tha beast. But I understand that if you try to make him the key stone of a conventional list you'll struggle in open or vertical tables, or when your opponent is heavy on MSV 6th sense reactive

 

Speaking of bold statements...

LT2 profile, you know the one with the Multi not-Marksman Rifle.

He was just struggling getting damage in on stuff like Mounted Bounty Hunters and other light stuff in cover on tight tables with lots of terrain to allow him to move up - and with the necessary disclaimer because oh boy do people like to skip that part: for the price and importance of the profile.

 

So what does a Hsien bring to the table?
Great BS14
AM4 BTS6
Good but not great CC21+Maritial Arts 1
MSV2
Lt. with +1 SWC, or +1 Order, specialist
A short, medium, and long range gun

Just as an HI with good BS skill they are pretty good, however for the price you can get others that are just as good for cheaper. A Bao sniper + Rui Shi is cheaper than one Hsien HMG. For me the Multi-rifle is not great. If I'm going to be spending that many points on something, I want it to have a bit more hitting power or do something else exceptionally well. For near the same points and no SWC I could have a Daofe or Su Jian. Even a Shang Ji adds a bit more to it's multi-rifle.

Unless you are planning on using both Lt. orders on him, you should probably take an NCO. of which all of them are expensive on top of your already expensive Hsien! +1 SWC can be good but I find myself not needing it or because I took an expensive Lt. I can't afford the points to make use of that SWC. +1 Command Token can be pretty cool but I'm not sure.

 

Got to use the Multi Rifle Hsien LT in our Armory game two weeks ago and he did alright, but then again the mission is pretty much tailored to this kind of unit:

- 54 points of fairly durable S2 occupying the ZO, possibly in suppressive fire
- MSV 2 makes him nasty against enemy skirmishers, who are likely to be around the ZO
- WIP 14 Specialist, so he can open the gates himself, freeing up Guilang and similar to do other stuff on your turn
- Panoply drops on such a premium unit can be very strong
- B2 Nanopulser is nice to have inside the armory

The two LT orders were basically mandatory to get him into position in the first place, so I'm not sure the MMR variant would've been as useful in the same role. A CoC Pheasant KHD also turned out to be vital, because the opponent will absolutely try to remove him and likely succeed at some point in the game. My Hulang also helped contest the ZO with his Koala and Suppressive Fire + MIM-6 and somewhat drew away the focus off the Hsien for the first couple of turns. Having two HI sitting in the ZO also means you'll need hacking protection of some kind, so that angle was covered by the Guilang with deployable repeaters to enable my KHDs. +1 SWC on the Hsien allowed me to squeeze that Husong HMG into the list next to my 2 Long Ya, which usually never happens, so this was a nice defensive bonus.

It was a solid match and the lists were both relatively unorthodox/tame, but I was happy to see that, given the right mission and context, the Hsien did pull his weight in several ways. He has a particular combination of features that make him quite unique within YJ. Not sure if one could make a reasonable case for him compared to the good old Daoying + NCO in other scenarios, but this will be my new go-to approach for the Armory.

 

Yeah, that sounds about right. Multirifles have always been great when a mission forces the fight into the midfield, I've had my best mileage out of Multirifle Hac Tao in missions like Acquisition, where they can run up and punch something off the table centre.

 

Lt profile with the common multi rifle works better than the marksman on 200 point lists. The narrow width of the table and subsequent sceno clustering makes mid-short range more common

Same thing happens with other "un-used" profiles with multi, like the mowang or the su-jian Heavy shotgun

 

Have you tried it? I don't have a frame of reference for the marksman profile, as I wrote earlier, so I'm more curious about how it would compare to other competitors for the points like a Su-Jian, Krit, or Hac Tao when taking the rest of the list in mind.
Not that I'm very interested in 200 points, though, low points costs makes skews happen real hard in my experience.