I use Taowu a lot and I find it very difficult to get him into CC at all. My opponents have learned to avoid anything they think may be holomasked Taowu with their Saito Togans etc and just shoot him or come after him with a cheap DTW troop.
I'm not going to go into how powerful, or not, NBW can be. But after thinking about what this thread is about, in my opinion I don't think that expanding the categories of Immunity is a good idea. Right now there are three categories: 1.- Ammunition (I include «Total» in this category). 2.- States 3.- Critical Creating a fourth category for a Immunity to a Skill, opens up some options that I don't think anyone is willing to take on. Because if there is Immunity to a Skill (NBW, for example), why not to other Skills? Immunity (CC), Immunity (CD), Immunity (Sensor), Immunity (Impersonation), Immunity (Stealth), Immunity (Martial Arts) or... I think you get what I'm saying.
Well, NBW is, effectively, Immunity (Martial Arts) with a different name. Immunity (Impersonation) would be a powerful and very useful ability that many players would like to have :p
Immunity to Martial Arts already exists... that's what NBW is. The skill NBW could be deleted to save space this way. Honestly, Immunity to skills would take the same thing every other rule in the game takes, reasonable application. @ everyone, I know you're all reaching a consensus that Immunity isnt the way to handle NBW but I think it might be possible some group think is at play if the arguments are simply to say it's not okay to do this rule because it behaved a certain way even though many other things in the game behave the same and or in similar ways. Edit- MSV3 is immunity...
Yes NBW counters Martial Arts, but it is a Skill countering another Skill, not an immunity to a Skill; the effect is the same... but it's not the same. You were asking about rock-paper-scissors in another thread, If NBW beats Martial Arts... who does Martial Arts beat that can beat NBW? (not a rhetorical question, just genuine curiosity).
At least in my own sectorial, units with NBW are usually fragile, expensive, lack Mimetism, and only middling at shooting. So their NBW counters Martial Arts, Martial Arts sometimes counters good shooting (since the MA mod applies to shooting AROs in they get into base-to-base, usually smoke used if they lack MSV, and a lot of shooting units can't melee good), then shooting counters my NBW units since they only have BS12/BS13 with no mods. That's just within Ramah Taskforce though. The outlier is the Beast Hunter who is cheap, disposable, good in melee, and has mimetism. But like, people already mentioned him.
It is the same, we're just calling it a different name. To answer the question, CC is in a weird design space because it has so many different skills but then again we could say the same about BS Attacks, extra burst, berserk, modify target number. Some of these are achievable without a skill name shown by N4s expanse of mods. Specifically a Rock Paper Scissor situation for NBW and MA with the same CC value. NBW > MA (prevents the inclination to want to use CC), CC +1B > NBW, NBW+ MA/+/- etc > CC +1B and so and so on. People are complaining about an endless chain that would be created by implementing Immunity of some kind but that chain already exists. Granting Immunity to NBW for like 5 or less models in the game is not a problem at all and is easy to implement because it's already done, you just have to say it out loud. This is why I think so many people have fallen victim to group think.
Do you really think so? Because if you really think that those who don't think like you are just victims of groupthink (and therefore make incorrect and/or irrational decisions just because they believe it is the group's consensus), everything seems to indicate that this is another of those «I'm right because I'm right and everyone else is wrong» conversations... and for my part it would be time to leave the conversation.
I'm not trying to be insulting, just think about it, the arguments were this would create the potential for endless loops and that Immunity being used in more than just states would cause problems but we already have "endless" loops and Immunity to more than just states which NBW is Immunity. Once I realized what was being said and talked about during this discussion I realized that these arguments against Immunity are hypocritical. That being said, I eventually moved past Immunity on to the next step of the evolution concerning "endless" loops of skills effecting each other and that Immunity should only apply to states even though we do have Immunity elsewhere in the game. MSV3 is Immune to all Mimetism and the camouflaged state of other models and NBW is immune to MA. I created another thread to discuss the future of that and at least that discussion will be less prone to the kinds of arguments that ignore the existence of things that already exist in the game. As someone said, NBW and Immunity : MA do the same thing but arent the same thing when in reality, the only difference is the name. I hope now you understand that my intent is not to insult but to point out these things. Is it hypocritical or irrational, I don't know which, but I know it's not an argument that fits.
TBH I don't even know why we still have martial arts as a skill. Why not just grant mods? The precedence is already here: Nourikas is MA4 with CC B+1. It works exactly as MA5 but he keeps the +1B against NBW. Is this some sort of selective Immunity or just a way to cheat points formula?
just throwing random suggestion, how about semi-reverting NBW to n3 style: that in CC you can either use MA or NBW effect?
I think you nailed the issue on the head here. Cheap profiles with NBW do feel a bit too good for how much they cost. Berserk is a bit of the same, but with berserk at least the model has to make a dangerous decision to use it, so there's a risk involved. NBW is free of risk. Putting it in a high cost model isn't much of a big deal, but a 12 point chump with this skill does feel odd. I think you need to pull the magnifier glass back here. Maybe the problem isn't NBW? Maybe it's JSA that's at a bad design position right now? it may be the case the army is suffering from poor synergies or other issues that make it underperform. Changing NBW will not make the army better. Hell, it might even make it worse! Immunity skills are expensive. Do you want a 48 point Shinobu? Nourkias will still get chumped by most NBW models. And as mentioned earlier, the +1Burst only works on the active turn, while MA5 works on both turns. I like martial arts the way it is right now, because the boni are progressive so I can readily remember what they do. I really don't like the idea of mucking with stuff that is working perfectly fine in the game right now, and the CC skills are finally at a very good spot. What I think should happen is there should be a soft cap on some stuff. Like, NBW shouldn't be on cheap filler units. And NBW+Berserk is a powerful combination that should be left for expensive named characters like Ajax and Valkyrie
Maybe there is something to say about JSA, but then what's the solution... I believe there is always two ways to go about balancing Infinity, give everyone the same stuff or double down on what makes them special. I personally like sectorials to be thematic and flavorful. But I believe if CB is going to give a theme to an army, CC in JSA's case, then several units in that faction should not be able to be hard countered in that theme aka they should be tied for best in that theme. NBW+ MA or +B etc is a hard counter to JSAs theme. For me, I think some JSA units should be tied for best in the game for CC. Maybe since MA 5 doesnt really matter in the reactive turn, they should have never made it and just gave Kitsune and Musashi +1 B. Think about it, NBW hard counters it and generally speaking it's easier to avoid CC with people you cant beat than it is to avoid shooting. Now if those troops weren't so easy to avoid their CC, then that would be something...
This pretty much, thinking changing NBW is going to help JSA in any meaningful fashion is just utterly barking up the wrong tree.
I think Reducing JSA's strengths to 'Good in CC' is making a disservice to the army. JSA has: - Robust HI fireteams that are still versatile in what weapons they can bring to the table; - Effective delivery methods of extremely efficient CC assassins; - a Robust command chain with many extra orders; JSA Lacks: - Long Range presence; - Strong hackers; NBW doesn't even factor into this equation. Hell, an oniwaban can probably just fucking shoot the NBW bloke charging at him most of the time, or he can, you know, go into marker state, which is a really, really powerful defense. I'll keep my opinion that NBW isn't the problem. Giving Berserk+NBW to models that cost 20 points or less is.
JSA's biggest issue is the army is designed to be an upfield brawler and wasn't given any way to ensure they can make it into position. Other factions that are designed in that way successfully, such as Tohaa, who aren't given powerful HMG band weapons/links, carry Eclipse or a combination of White Noise and warband Smoke. NBW, warbands, all that crap is inconsequential in the long run. The biggest issue they face is you slap a Karhu, Kamau, Grenzer, or some other nonsense MSV link (or even just any mid tier MSV toting link like a Haidao) in front of them their assault stalls out immediately and they're forced to start looking at some ludicrously bad, horrifically order inefficient trades to try do something about the issue.
I didnt complain about their HI and I only suggest a couple of units should be able to deal with NBW. This thread is about NBW and thus CC and far more units in JSA are CC than HI. And the delivery method isnt the problem, it's that NBW and really DTWs everywhere that counter these 1W, 1ARM ph12/13 assassins really well. I already said their are two ways to bring balance, give what others have or double down on what you already have. JSA has good CC and good board control (but not half of their W units are centered around control). If JSA doubled down on CC effectiveness including against NBW and the reactive turn it'd be fine. Then give the KHD Ryuken firewall -6 and swap its shock mines for E/M mines and voila JSA has a hacking deterrent. Oniwaban arent shooting a DTW carrying unit that can punk it in CC and Camouflage will help burn orders but cant kill things in the reactive turn, short range weapons are good for conserving more orders than CC but the nature of Oniwaban is such that people tend to only bring 1, or just the character really. Giving MA to NBW is also a problem. If the game is supposed ro give advantage to the active turn then why is there such a disparity between Ajax and most things in JSA of the same cost or more even if it's JSAs turn. NBW is a problem, it's just no can gree what should be done about it. If every army has the same stuff game wouldnt be as interesting which is why I suggest doubling down, also the game has compounding effects that should be addressed at the same time.
