It's a solution to the problem, but it's not a good one imo, it's just power creep, and at some point it'll call for more power creep to be reigned in, etc, etc.... which is what @Weathercock illustrates in his tongue-in-cheek comment.
I think it's fine. It's an important counter to units with Martial Arts that isn't just having a higher CC/Martial Arts. Especially against units with access to Mirrorball or Eclipse Grenades, it might make them think twice before walking into melee. The issues I see people have with it is that it's on some cheaper models now, like the 9 point Beast Hunter or 14 point digger. No one is complaining about my expensive Khawarij or Nahab having it, it's the disposable Beast Hunter they don't like. I rather not have the points cost jacked up because it will more greatly affect the elite units who want it to disincentize melee attacks than the problematic cheap units.
Okay, so if so many people say it's only a little problem, then what about how effective it is against JSA? I saw mention of two things, either NBW should be removed from the game or it should be changed. What would you change it to?
Nothing changes. Go find something else to attack with your CC units. If you commit Shinobu or a Ninja to fight one of these new NBW+MA creations like the Tyrok you're making a strategic blunder. Use a gun to kill these things.
The thing is, with so many threads about how JSA is bad at something, or something is not fair for JSA, eventually its hard to take it seriously or care. If Diggers are fucking up your JSA lists, honestly, I think you need to try building those lists a little differently. 100% agree with Triumph here - if you are attacking strong melee units with other strong melee units, that is not a winning play. NBW is simply part of this larger dynamic. Unlike gunfighting, where like units can overpower the other via burst advantage, CC needs to just be much better than the target to make it an effective option.
You're insinuating backwards. Think the other way. It's more like these NBW troops are free to bully who ever they want, not that they cant be bullied. Remember that.
You're assuming the same way. Players arent trying to go into CC with NBW, NBW is trying to go into CC with everyone else. Likewise, sending cameronian into CC with a Myrmidon isnt very wise, but sending a Ninja into CC with myrmidon or a cameroonian can actually achieve something. NBW troops are specifically equipped to hunt other CC troops. No one is trying to hunt NBW with a Ninja. Itd be better for the discussion if people werent assuming other players are strategically incompetent, that's how we start arguments here.
Exactly. Things like NBW, calculating crits differently, high CC scores, etc., are designed to make CC a viable option, unlike N2. Re-castrating it is a step backwards.
I just wanna make sure I understood correctly, recastrating CC, right? Also @WiT? , a few weeks ago you were heavily agreeing making CC more viable in the reactive turn is something you'd like to see, NBW remaining as the top tier will circumvent any such thing for the majority of CC troops dont have it, and Martial Arts are the CC version of having Cover and removing your opponents.
I think I asked already, but if not Immunity to NBW, then what to do about it, because there have been a lot mentioned about, it's fine if people dont think the solution is Immunity but it is definitely a problem, over half of all mentioning in the past year has been that it's a problem.
The only place where it might conceivably be a problem is on the (unfairly) maligned TAGRaid profiles. The other places it occurs it’s a skill that makes sense both from a story and mechanical standpoint. All of the units that have it are described as CC beasts, so it works, and enables them to live up to that title. If you look at the roster of who has it, it’s characters like Sr. Massacre or Gunnar, or units like the Volkolaks. Again, the issue lies with profiles where folks might consider it over-optimized, rather than the skill itself.
Who has NBW, (*) indicates with some combination of mods or skills that makes NBW users not just more survivable but actually CC hunters, a (-) indicates I believe a removal of either the +1B or MA or NBW etc is necessary because they shouldn't be that good (either not a character or too cheap or too good and tax would be unreasonable, ($) indicates I believe the model should be this good but maybe it's a little to cheap in some way. Because as it stands, there are a ton of NBW and we're not accounting for troops who just have big negative mods, if we were to compare this to something equally powerful but less counterable like marksmanship, well there are 6 units in the game who have access to marksmanship vs 30 NBWs. Perhaps CB can afford to reign in NBW a bit if they aren't going to counter it. Also, at the moment CC users are already very well countered by DTWs. Le Muet KotHS Gunnar Diggers*, - Beasthunters Tauwu*, $ UKR*, $ Volkalak Pavel*, $ Cameronians Wulvers Cadin* Wallace Carmen*, $ Khawarijs Nahab*, - Tarik Chimera*, - Senor Mass* Raoul* Jayth*, - Sargosh*, $ Tyrok* Kornak Rasyat* Kendrat* Ajax*, - Kiel-Saan* Valkyrie* Bluecoats*
Again it's pretty much a low issue. If your opponent is being allowed to reach your units you need to reconsider your positioning and where you're leaving them because they're going to likely eat shit and die regardless of what's coming at them. Is a Digger one of these new units that has a combination of skills that lets them fight a Ninja in CC? Yes. Does it matter? No, not really. NBW is unlikely to even come into play. The Ninja's first ARO is going to have to be dodge because otherwise they eat multiple DTWs and die anyway, and they're likely 77% to lose that F2F roll without even needing to worry about the NBW. Could a Jayth beat you in CC? Yes... but if there's a Jayth it's probably in a fireteam with Sheskin and you're more likely to get shot to death by her than the Jayth ever being committed to CC. It doesn't really matter what you're playing into. Active turn has the advantage whatever your unit is if your opponent can reach it, you're probably going to lose it. It might be some chump with NBW, or it might be just a core link with a gun, or a skirmisher with mines. Unless you have something that is on an extreme of the spectrum in defensive qualities you need to be mindful of over extending it. Your CC stats do not qualify as that kind of defense.
I'm no expert, but of that list the only ones I have seen common complaints about regularly are Diggers, Beast Hunters, and Chimeras/UFK. The rest are characters, melee specialists, and a few oddballs like Jayth/Khawarij/Bluecoats. Carmen is pretty cheap so I sorta understand wanting her more expensive, but why strip the Nahab of NBW? It's like, the one good melee unit my sectorial has, and we are already bottom of the barrel. I don't see it too often, but if it's an issue in Vanilla you could reduce the AVA to 1.
*Every* unit on that list has a good reason both in army and in story as to why they have NBW. And for them to get close enough for it to matter, there's a whole lot that has to have happened. Folks may not *like* the rule, but it has a fit in the game on specific kinds of units. CC beasts (not skilled), and in the case of the Ariadna ones quite literally. A comparison with Marksmanship is a red herring, since one skill is certain to be used every single game, and the other could go dozens of games without being used.
I did make that mistake, though in fairness I have not seen any NBW models going CC hunting any time recently. I am not seeing the issue that you put forward here and would need more elaboration. My understanding is that say, if a Digger or Beast Hunter gets close to a Ninja, it can attack it with a combination of CC and templates and fork to get good odds. I don't think the NBW is what is pushing this situation over the edge. More broadly though, NBW models engaging non-NBW models have the same issue that CC specialists have against CC specialists in general. They are favored, but not by much, and so it is usually better to attack that model a different way. Can you be specific with what units or situations seem egregious, particularly against JSA?
Not specifically the NBW but there's a combination of skills there that are extra potent. Ajax is a good example, he pays the points but his combination of skills and equipment are just perfectly optimized. Someone could say to berserk a Domaru in there but Domaru are not a cheap expendable warband. Alternatively ofcourse an Oyoroi would get the job done but where is the rock paper scissors... that's more like rock vs rock (Berserking Domaru destroys itself by smashing itself into another rock) or hammer (oyoroi) order dumps. As an aside, I'm sure most will remember when NBW first rolled around and it was presented as a debuff to MA, more a defense than an attack and nobody thought it was a problem cause. Either attacker nor defender gained any leverage, and NBW combinations, or really any other crazy CC combinations are now far better than the best of MA. Just food for thought. And yes I understand for so many others are saying without saying this is a shooting game, and you shouldnt want to CC anyways cause DTWs but if that's the argument for every CC oriented conversation then we're never gonna get anywhere and that's including even if I want the one bringing anything up, someone else will come along and say the same thing a month from as has been done in the past. Maybe we can stop looking at every problem brought up individually and start looking at the game as a whole. People have complained about DTWs and NBW separately getting in the way of CC, well maybe that's a compounding problem and we arent looking at things correctly.
in Ajax's defense hes a (one of three that exist in game and one of the two that also has NBW) melee fatsuit in a force that has a long list of other CC destroyers that are smaller targets, usually equipped with ODDs, various defensive smokes or I-koh+ bike, comparable armor/ better ranged weapons, superior CC score before MA is applied and also fireteam capable. did anyone really consider him for lists in n3? but yeah i agree tag raid profiles really need a second pass for.
