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Division or addition first?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Feb 17, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's very few places where a value needs to be multiplied or divided and where they can have a MOD at the same time, the only place I can think of is a trooper with Booty/Panoply/MetaChem result in a MOD to ARM/BTS.

    I can't find it in the rules whether we are meant to do multiplications first or additions first. The rules do arbitrate rounding.

    So, a Bounty Hunter in cover has +3 to ARM from Booty and is hit by an AP Rifle, will the Bounty Hunter be saving against DAM 8 or against DAM 6? I mean, I assume it's 8 as that makes the most sense from a balance stand point*, but it's more about where it is arbitrated.

    * Until we get an ability that multiplies a value that can be modded, in which case that order of operations gets crazy.
     
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  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I assume the ABH is ARM 4 because of booty, cut to 2 by AP, so the DAM is 13-2-3(cover)=8?

    Are you wondering if the ABH is instead still an ARM 1 unit, and Booty is a MOD applied at Resolution? So, it remains at ARM 1 after applying AP, then the DAM is 13-1-3(Booty)-3(cover)=6?

    To me it seems less a question of whether we do addition or multiplication first, and more a question of whether Booty alters the unit's stats vs. applying a MOD during Resolution. I've always assumed the former.
     
  3. Gwynbleidd

    Gwynbleidd Non asto coram malo

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    I too have always assumed the former but it is an interesting question.
     
  4. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Same reasoning here, I've always thought that cover gives an ARM/BTS bonus that you either add or ignore, but no ammunition type ever modifies it.
    Regarding Booty, I've always asumed that once you roll and get that +3, that permanently modifies the trooper's profile.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I mean, Booty or MetaChem satisfies the definition of a MOD to an attribute (either by direct result or by being an unnamed piece of gear with a mod as effect), so that would only make sense to be applied when relevant - for ARM that typically means resolution for both AP and +3 ARM.

    The skills themselves are set dressing (they are examples) for the real question, which is the order of operations when there's a conflict of interest in how to deal with multiplications in the game.

    Examples where it is dealt with specifically in the rules:
    Coordinated Orders - here there is a clear order of operations spelled out by the addition of the words "halved [...] including bonuses"
    Prone - in this case the rules solves it by simply halving the MOD as well, which curiously means the division is done prior to adding the MOD to the attribute.

    (This paints a pattern, but I can't find a general rule to follow when the rules do not spell it out)
     
    #5 Mahtamori, Feb 17, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2022
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Cover now reduces the Damage of an attack rather than modifying ARM or BTS, which is the same result but means it no longer needs an exception in the AP/K1/Mono rules.
     
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  7. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    [​IMG]
     
  8. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'm still in the N3 mindset.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yeah, I wouldn't rule out that interpretation. Booty itself is a Deployment Skill, so I think its Effect has to happen at deployment, not at the Resolution of an order. But, I can see the argument that what Booty does, at deployment, is give the trooper a piece of Equipment which subsequently has the Effect of providing a +3 MOD to ARM whenever the trooper is called upon to make an armor save.

    It does seem a bit convoluted to invent a new, unnamed piece of Equipment with an Effect that happens each time the trooper makes an armor save, compared to just reading Booty as having the Effect, at deployment, of increasing the trooper's ARM by 3 for the whole game. In the latter case, then it wouldn't matter whether the word "MOD" is correct as a description of the +3 increase because, MOD or not, the increase happens first, well before the division by 2 imposed by AP is calculated. But I suppose either reading is possible.
     
  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Please re-read what you wrote and tell me you're not seriously expecting a game rulebook to regulate 1-4 grade school level arithmetics?

    Please.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am sure the thread can happen without personal attacks.

    On the actual question I always assumed Booty modifications are a one off permanent additions and not a constant modifier.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have studied university level mathematics and I have played a lot of games, both have taught me to not assume that the 4th grade arithmetic taught in school in my country is correct everywhere when the equation is written poorly, both because roughly 20% of the world places the parenthesis differently when they are omitted and because games, specifically, often have a need to manipulate numbers to keep them sane.
    So no, I don't make those assumptions, Nuada, and neither should you.
     
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  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Not really sure what you mean there, unless there's an enforced order of action by parentheses, when they're omitted the sequence is known and unchanging - parentheses / brackets, exponents, multiply/divide, add/substract.

    We're neither doing university grade math here, nor does this truth change for any of it. Not sure what "your country is" but if it teaches that the above can vary depending on how the equation is written (parentheses/brackets enforcing order excluded), it's pretty stunning.
     
  14. Gwynbleidd

    Gwynbleidd Non asto coram malo

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    Yes, this is how our group has always used the system. Add the stat changes/equipment before the game begins proper to the unit in question.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This isn't university level mathematics, but university level mathematics will have you formulate proof of why 2 + 2 = 4 and over the course of learning how to construct proof for mathematical theory, you get to learn that stuff you've been taught to take for granted isn't necessarily true everywhere so being sloppy with parenthesis is bad for your proof.

    The example of 2 + 2 * 4 + 2 = X presents a problem because it is written sloppily. Some systems will group that as (2 + 2) * (4 + 2) = X while others will group it 2 + (2 * 4) + 2 = X and depending on how you group them, you will get different results. The prior is not very common and most of the world teaches the latter (i.e. use parenthesis/group only where needed), but that doesn't make it a universal truth, it's just teaching us to assume intent.
    Incidentally why those insipid facebook posts that's designed to cause controversy so they can harvest who you are and who you know generate so many responses.

    Flipping back to game theory. Paradox Games is renowned for typically using multiplicative mathematics for their percent modifications (most of the time, not always), while most games will be applying a perceptual modification on the base value only (additive multiplication). The difference is that if the base value is 20 and you get two +100% bonuses, one system will yield a net value of 60 and the other 80. This is a very important and big difference.
    Some game systems may even want you to do even crazier things like addition before multiplication before division before subtraction simply to preserve and control the potency of negative mods. This is more typically reserved for RPGs.

    We don't have multiplicative mods above 1 in this game (officially and at the moment), and with divisions are generally safer it lessens the impact. Add to it that in the two cases I've found CB has specifically written to do the multiplication/division on both base value and modifications (interestingly prior to addition, but that's just a curiosity). So as a curiosity and for the sake of future home brew and ITS missions, just having a generalisation of "unless otherwise specified divisions apply to both the attribute and any MODs" (or otherwise) would be a nice thing to have.
     
  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Well, like I just said, unless there ARE parentheses to enforce "(2 + 2) * (4 + 2) = X", the order is always "2 + (2 * 4) + 2 = X", sloppy notation or not. PEMDAS/BEDMAS is not optional, it is in fact an objective truth.

    The introduction and continuation of simplistic calculators which rely on input sequence instead of treating the operation as a whole has created those issues in people's minds. The non-scientific Calc in Windows does this while the scientific/engineering interface doesn't, for example.

    Whatever acrobatics Paradox RPGs do to bend statistics is a non-sequitur, we're talking a fairly basic wargame here. The Infinity rulebook doesn't adjust your math.
     
  17. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    This line (present also in Metachemistry)
    upload_2022-2-18_13-49-15.png

    should solve it.
    It is not a MOD. It's full new value
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The issue I see with this is that the item is not expressed as a full new value, it is expressed as a modification of the existing value. If the trooper already has 3 BTS, your net value will be 9 BTS due to the MetaChem 13-14 result being +6 BTS and not 6 BTS.

    Unless you are arguing that a CSU rolling 14 on MetaChem would have an attribute of 6 BTS?

    (Oh, and also just because it is a piece of gear doesn't mean it's not providing a MOD)
     
  19. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Yeah, that line doesn't help. What's an "item"? What's a trooper's "gear"? The line tells us that +3 ARM doesn't replace any of the trooper's weapons or equipment, but we knew that already. ARM is an Attribute, not a weapon or a piece of equipment. Even if we take the line to mean that Booty doesn't "replace" the trooper's ARM Attribute (which would be a stretch), what would that even mean? If anything, it would be mild support for the idea that the trooper's ARM remains at its original value, and Booty does something other than replacing that value with a new value that's 3 higher.
     
  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    An "item" is an entry on the "gear" list of the character's weapons and equipment.
     
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