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Throwing Drop Bears as a ZoC ARO + Targetless

Discussion in 'Rules' started by AntipodeanBolt, Oct 1, 2021.

  1. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    Good Morning...stemming from a discussion back in March during the enfilade of CC Attack from in ZoC but out of LoF i attempted to generate a plan using Bolts and Drop Bears. The following idea was thus.

    [​IMG]

    Now the logic as follows for this is;

    1. Enemy trooper acts within ZoC but out of LoF.
    2. Declare BS Attack - Throw Drop Bear; Designating a spot on the ground within my LoF as my target - Satisfying Targetless rules and requirements for BS attack.

    Reason for this is that BS Attack requires a target within LOF. Targetless allows designation of a location as a target instead of an opposing unit. So therefore Targetless allows me to declare a BS Attack ARO at a location within my lof with my drop bear.

    @Mahtamori

    Is this an intentional way for Smoke and Drop Bears and similar weapons to be used or is it an unintentional use?

    If unintentional then:
    Recommended proposed change is to adjust BS Attack requirement to:
    • In the Reactive Turn, LoF to the Active Trooper is required, unless the BS Weapon, Skill or piece of Equipment used doesn't require LoF.
    Regards,

    Avid Bolt Fan.
     
  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    BS Attack as an ARO requires LoF. As an LoF ARO you may declare it pre-emptively if your ZoC is breached but it will fail if you don't have LoF to at least one activated enemy model by the end of the order. That enemy model in LoF is what allows to declare LoF ARO such as BS Attacks which you then may use the weapon's trait to target a point on the ground.
     
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  3. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    No see here's the thing BS Attack doesn't require Lof to an enemy model only Lof to your target.

    Be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the TARGET of the BS ATTACK. My target as per Targetless rule is a specific location on the ground in my LoF
     
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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  5. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Hmm, you're right. His ruling was that smoke grenades aren't a "special Skill, weapon, or piece of Equipment that can be used without LoF" within the meaning of the "Zone of Control and AROs" rule. FAQ 1.1.1 appears to replace the entire text of that rule with new text that instead just says that you can react to a trooper in ZoC with an ARO.

    The text of the BS Attack rule is also entirely replaced in the FAQ, and doesn't have any Requirement to be able to draw LoF to the active trooper - only to the target of the attack.

    Though I can't imagine it's intended, I can no longer find any rule that would prohibit throwing smoke (or a drop bear) in a ZoC ARO without LoF to the attacker. The FAQ seems to have (inadvertently?) removed the rule that used to prohibit it.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Hilarious.
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    This only came up because a new Player who never played N3 showed up asking why this was wrong.
    And we could not prove him wrong, RAW you can use Smoke, Pitchers and Drop Bears as ZOC AROs.

    First of all this is obviously unintended (as stated by IJW in this thread https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/throwing-drop-bears-as-a-zoc-aro-targetless.40388/ ) and no one should play Targetless BS Weapons with the ability to make ZOC AROs without LOF.

    The problem is that for example the Skill Place Deployable uses wording that prevents this issue, by clarifying there needs to be LOF to the Active Trooper.
    upload_2021-10-1_9-15-58.png

    BS Attack fails to do the same thing.
    upload_2021-10-1_9-16-59.png

    And Targetless bypasses all requirements that could potentially require LOF to the Active Trooper in ARO:
    upload_2021-10-1_9-18-9.png

    Hence IJW's answer does not satisfy the problem this thread points out, nor does a preliminary ruling exist for this.

    The straightforwad and easy proposed fix would be to add an ARO clause with the wording from Place Deployable for BS Attack.

    "Be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the target of the BS Attack and in the Reactive Turn, be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the active Trooper, unless the BS Weapon, Skill or or piece of Equipment doesn't require LoF."

    We have a clear declaration of intent from IJW that Smoke ZOC AROs are not a thing, but in the rules this is simply neither ambiguous nor expressed as forbidden.

    /edit: I probably can even explain how this happened.
    N3 used to have an LoF label for BS Attacks, which made LoF to the thing triggering the ARO necessary to use it without a weapon possessing the "No LoF" label.
    In N4 the LoF Label is gone from BS Attack and the restriction to not use targetless AROs as ZOC AROs with it.
     
    #8 Teslarod, Oct 1, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
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  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm not sure we even have that. @ijw ruled that smoke isn't a "weapon that can be used without LoF." At the time, there was a rule prohibiting the use of such weapons in a ZoC ARO. We know that @ijw didn't always base his rulings on intent (sometimes, he ruled "RAW it works this way, so it works this way unless CB decides to change it" without regard to whether it had been intended to work that way). In this case he didn't comment on whether his ruling was based on intent or on RAW.

    We can perhaps infer that his ruling was based on intent, simply because as you point out, RAW the ruling was a bit of a logical stretch. Also, just based on experience with how the game plays, we can be pretty confident that CB doesn't intend that smoke be used as a ZoC ARO. But that seems to be about all we've got, now that the rule @ijw based his ruling on is gone.

    Aside for completeness: the BS attack text you quoted above is out of date - it's been modified by the FAQ. Doesn't affect this issue, though.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The old rules were that you needed LOF requirements filled to be allowed to declare a LOF skill/ARO. Since we're discussing those here in terms that having LOF to the point of the board you are shooting at, I don't see how anything but timing has changed.

    Any old rule that said you needed to have LOF to the target you are AROing the BS Attack against should still apply, only be checked at step 5 instead of 2 and 4.

    I think the key here is that Targetless doesn't ever allow you to replace the central rule to ARO which is targeting the active trooper. Any LOF requirements for using smoke in ARO should still be checked against the active trooper because the ARO rules tell you this is the only target you're allowed to do that for. The only LOF you check for the ground point should be Total Cover because targetless allows you to place it there instead.

    Only other way I see this being read is that you aren't allowed to stick smoke on the ground in ARO, at all, ever
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that the general prohibition: "You can't use a weapon that requires LOF to respond to an active Trooper in your ZOC" was removed by FAQ 1.1..1.

    So that means that, per the rules, right now EITHER Targetless does allow you to replace the central rule to ARO which is targeting the active trooper OR you aren't allowed to stick smoke on the ground in ARO, at all, ever.

    Given we know that you can't target a Trooper with Drop Bears, a Pitcher or a Mine Dispenser then we can conclude that the second option isn't correct (ie. you are allowed to target a point on the table with a Targetless weapon in ARO).

    However, we can easily extend @ijw 's previous rulings to say "Yeah, nah, you do actually need LOF to the Active Trooper" but that's a very risky approach that we've been told specifically to avoid and it's not actually supported by the rules.

    Hence why this has been asked: there's an obvious disconnect between what we know of the intent and what a reasonable reading of the rules as they now stand support.

    Personnally, I think it's reasonable to add this to either the Unsolved or Solved questions list, with links to the previous rulings and a statement to that previous IJW rulings make the intent obvious.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Are we all spam pinging IJW in the hope he comes back?
     
  13. Blakhart

    Blakhart Well-Known Member

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    Forgive my ignorance but doesn't Total Cover negate the ability to even declare any BS Attack skill?
    The example looks like Total Cover but the OP said Out of LoF. Those are two different "things" correct?
     
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The effect of Total Cover is "If the target is in Total Cover, the attacker may not declare a BS Attack with Weapons, Special Skills, or Equipment, that requires LoF." Here, the target of the BS Attack is a point on the ground that isn't in Total Cover. The active trooper may be in total cover, but that has no effect since the active trooper isn't the target.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Added to the tracker of concerning grade, now that I have access to a desktop browser.
     
  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure he's left his position with CB at this point. His FB profile is active and focused on other games for the last few months.
     
  17. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    Just bumping this to see how FAQ 1.2 now interacts with all of this still.

    Gonna go out on a limb here @ijw Is it possible to get this pushed into the realms of clarification?
     
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  18. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Same i would imagine with just throwing smoke. If enemy's first short skill in ZoC is without stealth, and ends outside of LoF, you can preemptively throw /shoot the targetless weapon at the designated point that MUST be within Lof during declaration. (Edit, smoke must be legal at declaration, the drop bear or pitcher is not required to be)

    1)If the opponents second short skill then moves into Lof, the targetless bs attack is legal at resolution and perform any dice rolls as required.

    2) if the opponent's second short kill DOES NOT move into Lof, the targetless bs attack is NOT legal at resolution and do not perform any doce rolls and lose any disposable uses that were attempted (generally 1 usage, but maybe 2 if 3+ link team and applicible)
     
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  19. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    This is still the likely intent, but I don't think there's anything in FAQ 1.2 to confirm it, is there? The rule that would have made the smoke require LoF to the active trooper is still absent.
     
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  20. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    Again the issue with this is that Targetless states that an enemy is not required to be the legal target. It changes the condition from Target Model to Target Location. Which means my Target location is legal at resolution.

    The Specific Wording of Targetless is as follows - This weapon utilises a Special Ammunition capable of firing without designating an enemy as a target.


    So - ARO activates.

    1. BS Attack is Declared
    2. Targetless Changes condition from Target Model to Target location
    3. Resolution checks location is within Lof.
     
    #20 AntipodeanBolt, Feb 11, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2022
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