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Too many DTWs

Discussion in 'Rules suggestions' started by Mahtamori, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not actually a rules suggestion, but a bugbear. Sowwy.

    Remove the template mode from Light Shotguns.

    Rationale: The majority of units that have Light Shotguns got a point less expensive when going into N4 even though the weapon itself got what can only be seen as an upgrade - in part for getting a direct mode attack at the expense of the template mode becoming a DTW, but also because we effectively have 8" pre-measuring in the game which makes using Shotguns easier.
    More importantly, however, the game has oh. So. Very. Many. DTWS. So very many that it is making anything even remotely costly with only a single wound very difficult to make work.
     
  2. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    While I understand the concern about too many DTWs, I respectfully disagree. Shotguns have always had a template mode and is the entire reason for their existence.

    I, however, would be alright with them no longer auto-hitting and having to roll to hit. It still gives them a niche, but allows a face to face roll.

    Edit: Basically make them a point blank impact template.
     
    #2 Brokenwolf, Feb 7, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
    WiT? and Cthulhu363 like this.
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Impact Templates have a few issues at the moment. At short range they are very much a liability and work even worse than DTWs. If you CAN place them, it's easy for your opponent to cancel them if they're moderately willing to tie their trooper up in melee. Shifting it to a circular template would reduce the issue (no longer a scatter charge, but also not an airburst, more of a shotgun-loaded grenade), but it'd also mean that it's even more completely unusable as a short range ARO weapon.

    That said, having DTWs in general work like spray attacks from Warmahordes has its appeal (loosely translated, technical weapon that is not affected by visibility conditions), but it'd mess with game balance a lot, that's for sure.

    Returning to the original idea; the reason why I suggest Light Shotguns is that they are on a lot of units in the game at the moment. While historically these units have always had some form of template, it's not been a direct template that just bypasses a Reverend's Mim-6. I do think that in general we'd still be left with too many DTWs still, but as a first step this is a relatively speaking fair change given the points cost of the units that have them.
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Just make them roll to hit.
    Range (Template) +6
    Ignore Mimetism
    Ignore Cover

    Enjoy.

    And it gives the target a choice that is not a dodge.
     
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  5. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    To clarify, in my suggestion, it would continue to use the teardrop template. Basically it would work like a DTW but you have to roll to hit.

    And I believe that fully getting rid to the template mode for light shotguns would be detrimental for certain factions, namely Haqqislam. The proliferation of LSG is a core part of their identity losing the ability to trade for multiple models using the Shotgun is pivotal for them.
     
  6. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this except for the Ignore Minetism part.
     
  7. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that I agree that a DTW is strictly an upgrade, the context of the unit that's wielding and the target it's shooting makes such a difference in the conversation.

    Taking two units from the same faction with light shotguns as examples: Jaguars and Bandits.

    With a Jaguar, I'm trying to trade up by leveraging low points cost and Dogged, which is effectively increased single-turn survivability. Since I'm reasonably assured that I can get more than 1 shot at my target, choosing an option where I just hit if they don't dodge is a good success condition for me because I've already mentally committed to sacrificing it.

    With the Bandit, I'm trying to leverage total mods to get one good engagement instead of leveraging my increased active turn survivability and finding better engagement angles using Camo because if I get hit, I'm probably dying and I'm expensive. I would much prefer the option to be able to find a target with low mods, then stack everything in my favor to try and take out some friends along with the main target because they can't dodge as easily.

    Granted, the Jaguar scenario probably happens significantly more often than the Bandit one does; most good players aren't going to leave themselves in a conga line if they don't need too.

    As an alternative, maybe you could drop the burst on the template mode of a shotgun? It would be thematically consistent; shooting pellets all over the place hits everything but each individual target is hit fewer times whereas actually aiming gets more pellets flying at one target.
     
  8. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite drawn to the idea of template-mode shotguns becoming roll-to-hit, as it really weakens your defensive libertos, daylami, whatever. It becomes pretty insane offensively though when it's an active turn shooting expert beating all of those dodge rolls ftf. More and more people are discovering how much of a problem shotguns are for the game in general though.
     
  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It weakens the offensive capabilities of a lot of the problematic troopers. It's a pretty big nerf to Jaan Staar for example, which is greatly needed to put the profile back in line.
     
  10. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm ignorant of the problem here, but for the sake of rules clarity (or at least trying to not make them even more complicated than they're already becoming), I think making an exception/corner-case to the way ONE DTW works to require a to-hit roll feels sloppy when compared to the other options of manipulating the "rules levers" that already exist (e.g. Blast Mode is only B1 or any number of other options, such as reducing damage). I'd entertain removing the blast mode... though as a newer-ish player starting with N4, I do like the consistency of the shotgun rules all including both DTW and Hit Mode.
    Maybe there should be less DTWs as well (that's what people tell me at least) though I personally have not found them to be oppressive. And just like the discussion on fireteams... nerfing the LSG to keep some units from being overpowered may have the side effect of making other units unplayable.
     
  11. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Personally, i will be happy if shotguns go back to terminal template Mode and abandon Direct Template
     
  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    What if a roll-to-hit template mode does not have +6 but instead has +0. Scales back the issue of blasting an entire link team to death with your cheap LSG.
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Wait people consider Jaan Staar over the top?

    But more the point any trooper that has a LSG and for balance reasons needs the DTW back you can just whack a chain colt on them.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Template mode itself isn't an upgrade in my opinion, but that together with a direct hit mode and the changes to how ZoC are measured are a direct upgrade.

    Strictly speaking, they could introduce (reintroduce in some cases) Chain Colt on the troopers that specifically are meant to have a light DTW.

    You can do some pretty amazing things with him once you realise you don't need to deploy in Imp state to use Impersonation. I have no experience with this, but I do have to recognise how bananas it sounds to have a fairly competent IMP state trooper running around your DZ with a 'mate and a 'bomb.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I mean he can definitely do some work courtesy of Impersonation being a stupid rule that needs a rework, but is his upper threshold for impact actually that much higher than a Speculo or Fiday?

    Kuitaan and Jaan always struck me as bullies that pick on shitkicker engineers, mulebots etc while the Speculo tries to find the most expensive thing on the table or an LT and trade.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think Diphoration is better placed to answer this in detail, but it is Jaan more so than a Kiiutan since Jaan has more relevant gear instead of paying a lot for a Combi, and the combination of what Jaan enables other units to do.
    I've not experienced full Jaan myself so I don't know how it compares to IMP1s, so I'm still of the opinion that IMP2s are not off the chart.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ok that's fair he's definitely a good deal better than his non character compatriots.
     
  18. CaptainYarrr

    CaptainYarrr Active Member

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    Another idea would be to lower the damage from the direct hit templates of Shotguns. Give them -1 or -2 damage, similar to how impact templates weapons work with the blast mode.
     
  19. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I could see a full -3 to account for their ignoring cover. I don't see why a chain rifle is effective dam 16
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is an idea, but a different idea. That idea revolves around devaluing DTWs as a weapon (type) rather than limiting DTWs to force it to be a choice whether you bring it or not. It's a bit like how the "problem" with Shock ammo everywhere could be solved by giving most units that are most affected by it immunity instead of reducing the sources of Shock, if you'll forgive me for adding a bit of semi-snide commentary on certain design choices.
    I would personally prefer not to reduce the value of DTW as a tactic, but I'd like to see the tactic less available so that units that it primarily counter can gain value through tactical play by attacking where the opponent has few/no DTWs.

    By the way, DTWs do tend to operate in circumstances where it's fully possible to deny cover. They also don't roll to hit meaning dodging them is typically reasonably likely which is the trade off that the trooper with the DTW is forced to make.
     
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