I find it hard to imagine a scenario where, both (1) when the active trooper is in cover, the reactive trooper is so outgunned that its best ARO is Dodge, and (2) if the active trooper were to leave cover, it would be threatened by a BS Attack. I don't think I've ever seen it happen at the table. If your shooter is dominant enough to force a Dodge, just move anyway and fight them from out of cover.
Would be interesting to see a poll... to short move first or not to short move first? Also if losing the ability to draw a dodge by shooting first slightly nerfs active turn... maybe that's a good thing? So maybe this is a two birds one stone situation.
You would think, but I have seen it happen infrequently, regardless it is one of the interactions that would stop to exist if move is mandatory first, another one would be idle and them move.
A sad state of affairs then. As that completely goes against the feel of the game. Thanks! Sounds good then. Considering that you have to declare your intent in movement in any case this might work. I’d prefer it though if it was just stated for the fact that you can’t shoot someone as your first skill if you cannot see them at the time. But that’s just me. I’ve never (nor seen it in my gaming group) declared BS as my initial skill when my unit can’t see the enemy. Your suggestion is something that could certainly be tested. I would prefer not having to make it so that it is definitively you have to have move first as your first skill (if you then want to move again) but if that does solve the current issue then needs must.
As I said, sync peripherals are the problem, not control peripherals. And I'm not really thinking about UFK, people don't need to declare dodge anyway though, they can just shoot now, that's kind of the whole point of this "fix". The one I'm really worried about is Fiddler where I declare shoot with her and 2 jackbots and then you get to decide, do you try to dodge against 6 shots, or do you choose to shoot back at any of them and eat the other 4 shots for free while also not actually successfully shooting back because I'll just not move the one you targeted. And even ignoring Fiddler, if we go with what HellLois suggested and are permitted to declare "speculative" templates, then every auxbot-style unit in the game becomes extremely powerful with the fork of "eat shots from a combi or bsg from my controller or eat a heavy flamer template, the choice is yours". Even with a template ARO, the reactive player must declare the main target of the attack and the template is invalid if it never hits that main target, so sync peripherals get to run wild. Don't get me wrong, I hate DTW's with a fiery passion because they're auto-hits that ignore cover, so they're effectively auto-hits with +3dam, but the current change breaks others stuff too that I'm alot less ok with breaking. I'm not sure I love some of the suggested "fixes" either such as making all validity at time of declaration or forcing a move first. This was all done to stop cc baiting, so let's stick with a simple solution: BS Attacks may not be declared from behind total cover UNLESS you are ARO'ing. This stops cc baiting, stops bs baiting, and generally makes the game work as expected because the only interaction we should see where someone gets to bs attack from total cover is if he hears the UFK clambering over a wall and feeds him a template for his trouble.
A poll is a good idea, but not in the forums. Infinity Global Community would be a good place to start.
Idle is a short movement skill. Idle-Move would be allowed. And if it weren't, move-move with a 0" first movement would accomplish the exact same thing. Seriously, the idea that being able to declare your short skill before your short movement skill contributes anything meaningful to the game is just nonsense.
So this whole thing started with CC baiting originally? Like when you dodge in ZoC and out of LoF to force Aro and then move riskless into CC? Pardon me for my not-up-to-dateness (this whole shenanigans just don't happen in my casual meta, so I don't pay much mind to convoluted "solutions") but I just got an idea... that probably has a glaring weakness already discussed, but as I said I wasn't followinf this saga very closesly. How about we treat models in ZoC but not in LoF the way we treat markers? When an opposing model does something in your ZoC but not in LoF, you can react with any viable aros (dodge -3, reset, hack, jammer etc), or declare "wait" in hopes of getting more aro options as the model reveals itself (in this case comes into LoF) with the second skill. 1. It uses the mechanic that's already in game (waiting with aros) 2. it's intuitive and easy to explain: "if I hear something behind a corner I can immediately reposition (dodge -3) or wait with my gun ready and either blast a fool that comes out, or lose my aro as he goes away". 3. Doesn't seem to result in bizzare situations when rifle bearers can preemptively shoot suspected corner-rounder, but chain-rifles can't. 4. Probably deals with other kinds of ZoC baiting that I'm not aware of. So what's the big no-no that I'm missing?
The main issue you are missing is it is a pure benefit and no disadvantage to the reactive model, there is then no reason to not wait assuming the wait rule remains in line with the wait in camouflage, impersonation and holoecho states, otherwise the reactive model should forfeited the ARO if the model comes in sight and then we come back to the "ARO bait" of 3rd edition that the 4th edition rules allowing the models to shoot without a target and resolve the conditions at the resolution state fixed.
Arbitrary dictating the move must be the first short skill is arbitrary dictating the move and not the short movement skill must be the first short skill, man suggestions in the forum are gut reactions that sound good but are not developed and formed into proper propositions.
This is my favourite solution - it is intuitive, realistic, and elegantly solves all aro baiting that I can think of. It also feels future proofed against new rules. I hate the cinematics and unintuitive gameplay of the current system that has a unit in suppressive fire who is explicitly guarding a corner is unable to react with shooting at a unit who charges from around the corner. Forcing short movement skill as the first part of an order could also work, and is streamlined, but does remove edge cases like shooting from in LoF, and if the AROs are dodge then moving out of cover which you wouldn't have done if they shot.
You do realize that we've spent a good decade playing the game with the knowledge that declaring the movement before the shots is the smart thing to do so that you don't take surprise hidden deployment shots? This suggestion has a lot of playtesting behind it. A lot lot.
You do realize that you're addressing a guy who hasn't played the same game you have quite as much in that decade? Cut him some slack :)
I have thinking a lot if I should come to this discussion or not, but finally I decide to get into for what it could be worth. I believe how N4 try to resolve the Order Sequence almost nailed it in order to avoid the main issue with many of the "aro bait", what is really good. I don't understand the issue after the FAQ same as de most people here, the direct templates don't have any problems right now, you still can select the main target (probably one of the guys which are doing something so granting ARO), place the template and then, later in the "resolution phase" check if the target is ,or not, under, or touched by, the template, if yes, a hit will be done, if not and idle will come... So, I don't see all the issues most does, but where I find a real issue is with the terminal templates as grenade launchers and grenades, because they are weapons without "hit mode", always shoot with template, so, after the FAQ they need to place the template over the target in declaration... an exception which I don't understand, because is truly counterintuitive with the "regular flow of the game" and has nothing to do with the apparently intention to put all the checking thing on the resolution phase. But, if the intention in N4 is to put almost all the "checks" for a valid action/skill in the order resolution phase, then I don't understand why they don' change things like "no attacks can be declared against camo state", easily you can change to the resolution... you can declare whatever you want, then, later check the requisites. So, nothing weird or out of the regular game rules. Easier to understand easier to play. About the Movement proposal as others said "previously", the way the movement skill are described in the rulebook do that most new players declare first movement and later any skill, because most think that movement should be done first. The "viceversa" note goes pretty much unnoticed, but going deeper, most players always do "movement" first, because if they do shoot as first half order, any hidden deployment or camo marker can then shoot as ARO without a face to face roll, and pretty much nobody wants that. Of course it could bring some weird interactions, but "in fact", probably in the 99.99% of games, the first skill is always "move" or any with "movement tag in it". They are too few reasons to declare first "shoot", only last turns of a game where you are the first player and you need to force your enemy to pull out his hidden deployments in order to kill in active turn and avoid the "last sacrifice strategy" where a couple of hidden specialist can do "move+push the button" and roll the dice being lucky to steal the console in the last minute, in that case maybe you need to "place some bait" to make the enemy to think if "reveal" that troup could be worthy... I'm happy with how the orders can be declared right now, but too I believe to force MOVE in the first half order could be an improvement. Best regards!
I would hazard a guess that it is because the impact template placement is dictated solely by the position of the target, and the active player can potentially manipulate the positioning of the template with the chosen movement path creating at least some interesting situations. I do believe you are right on the DTW solution though, you place the template as ARO and if the active model moves into this path the template is resolved, if not the attack is cancelled and becomes an idle instead.
If nothing else TTS games online show that players often have discussions how something is resolved in their local meta. I am glad you are a forward thinker and acknowledge there is large a variance in Infinity's player base and that there needs to be an understanding between players and their respective backgrounds when discussing nuanced rules cases.
Yeah, ok, I probably could come up with some edge cases (to the tune of, "maybe I'll shoot first so they dodge, so then I can move safely"), but in at least 95% of situations I am quite convinced what you say would be true. ...And how is it game breaking? Compare: Scenario 1. Rejnhard: So in this situation, when my trooper is behind a corner, and in your ZoC but outside of LoF, you are in a similar situation when I came at you with a camo marker. You can either take your dodge-3 aro, or wait to see if I get around the corner and into your LoF with my second skill. Newplayer: Hmmm, let me think about.... It really seems that unlike with camo I have little incentive to not hold my aro in this situation. Rejnhard: You are right, sometimes decision in Infinity are easy. Not always, but sometimes they are. Scenario 2. Rejnhard: So in this situation, when my trooper is behind a corner, and in your ZoC but outside of LoF, I can declare a BS attack against your troop. Newplayer: But there is a solid wall between our guys! Rejnhard: Well yes, but I plan to move my guy into view, and then this declaration will be legal. Newplayer: Kinda like you ran away from the console with your first skill and then activated it with the second, but this time instead of going back in time, we anticipate what will happen? Rejnhard: Exactly. Newplayer: ...They did say Infinity is kinda complicated. What can I do? Rejnhard: Well you can declare BS attack as well and when/if I come into view you will get a chance to hit me. Newplayer: Weird... but fair. Ok so I declare my flamethrower! Rejnhard: No sorry you can't do that. DTWs work different than shooting, you.... uhhh... check if it's legal at declaration not resolution. Newplayer: What?! Rejnhard: You can't declare DTW now, I'm sorry, it's in the latest FAQ. Newplayer: Ok, so I will declare my DTW when you come around the corner. Rejnhard: No sorry, you can't do that, AROs are use it or lose it, and since I am acting in your ZoC you have an ARO. Newplayer: Yes right, sorry, I forgot.. But why can I "anticipate" you coming around with a rifle and not a DTW? Rejnhard: Because some stuff with template placement? Like I guess it is exploitable? You can use your pistol though! Newplayer: But it doesn't make sense. What's better at stopping a guy from coming at you from behind a corner. Waiting with a pistol, hoping you cap him, or spraying the area with fire?! Rejnhard: .... Sorry, them the rules. I really fail to see how scenario 1 is worse than scenario 2. I mean I'm not married to my idea. Diphterion's probably cleaner anyway. But for the love of God let's not make this: ...the direction in which Infinity rules go.
This isn't a good idea, because of coordinated orders and peripheral (sync). Fiddler is going to rekt stuff without any meaningful f2f rolls. I think that this question boils down to two options: Option1: You want that active trooper can ARO bait in some way --> Reactive player must effectively declare reactions before the attacker has declared both orders Option2: You don't want that active trooper can ARO bait --> Reactive trooper can effectively declare reactions after attacker has declared both orders Option1 makes close combat and possibly coordinated orders much more viable. Some people like that. This will be the default option if you don't change the core rules. Option2 is requires altering the core rules. In my opinion, the easiest solution is that active trooper player must have LoF or silhouette contact to declare LoF or silhouette contact related skills. Reactive trooper can declare anything (even BS attacks against total cover (terrain)), if it gets an ARO. Direct templates are placed after active player has declared 2nd skill. Even with this change, coordinated movement orders can get the active trooper into melee without any shooting attacks.
I think that best solution would be: Allow to use BS even against total cover. This allows to counter CC bait. And now the fork. 1 Either place a template at resolution, and allow BS to be declared from somewhere you haven't moved yet in that order. 2 Or keep restrictions for DTWs but make it so you can only declare BS from a position you are standing now or had moved through/from. This way BS is possible as 1st short skill and can be declared through total cover but in active it doesn't do anything. Both have a little different implications, but both remove aro baiting against DTWs. Nr1 still allows multiple units to bait, you don't move the one they declared as target of their aro and get free shots from the rest. Note: you could also implement a requirement that after declaring BS from somewhere you haven't moved yet you are forced to move there in 2nd shorth skill to stop that. Nr2 fixes issue with bait from nr1 but in a way it looks kind of like exception. Technically it isn't as you can declare BS through total cover and LoF requirements are checked at resolution, but there is quasi requirement of being in the place you shoot from at declaration.
