Hi Onyx & MAF players, I'm here to pick your brains on what is to my mind an iconic unit, with some of the best sculpts in the faction, but one that for some reason got a real kicking from CB in the N3->N4 transition: Rodoks. Why were they nerfed? What are they good for? What list archetypes do they suit, if any? What exactly was CB's vision for the unit? First, let's look at where they are and where they came from: Spoiler: Profiles N3 N4 As you can see Rodoks were unusual in that the transition from N3 saw them lose lots of options while going up in price, in an edition where most units went down and gained loadouts. The biggest three hits in loadout were the 1) loss of KHD, 2) loss of Lieutenant, and 3) mines being stripped from 3 out of 4 profiles. I consider all three to be pretty detrimental. Next, nearly every profile went up between 3-5 points, a hefty increase. Compounding this, superjump was nerfed in N4, halving their pop-up-shoot in range and height. Finally, they lost the native forward deployment from MI, and received a religious troop nerf, making them less flexible in depolyment and more vulnerable in protracted gunfights. Their two buffs were 1) +4 to CC (largely a tax on a unit not kitted out for melee) and 2) a move from 4-2 to 4-4 (a change native to every MI profile in the game). Meagre. Now as you can probably tell I'm salty about their fate, especially for Onyx. MAF have some other strong options for fireteams and don't miss Rodoks quite as much as Onyx, where they are the only unit aside from Unidrons with which to form a core. This locks the faction into a very narrow playstyle involving E-drones, Dr Wurm, Nexus, obligatory hacking defence, etc., in what is already a stiff and restrictive roster. Given that CB probably won't see the error of their ways any time soon, how can we best utilise our simian jumpers? If you run them regularly do you have any tips for their use and support, or a philosophy as to why you prefer them? Many thanks for reading!
In vanilla, the best way to run them would be to replace them with a Caliban. In Onyx the best mileage for them is on the way to the shelf so you can pull out your other Haris options instead.
I know that this is just a typo, and you meant to write 'deployment' and not 'depolyment' but I just want to point out what an awesome and poetic typing error this is. 'Poly' means many' and with the prefix 'de' we're talking about subtraction. Depolyment could quite reasonably be coined as a term that means "making fewer" which is exactly what's happened to their numerous N3 profiles being ransacked for N4--as you've quite rightly pointed out.
You mean Suryats? Yeah the Suryat LT has become a staple of many lists now, as Nourkias' Mr Enabler! Or are you one of those commanders that favours a tasty Xeodron Samaritan sandwich? I've run Rodoks in a haris with Ko Dali before. Probably the most 'accessible' way to put Rodoks on the table, I guess. 89pts is doable thanks to all Onyx's orderbots.
I don't play Onyx. I've been getting into Vanilla, and that kind of completely defeats the purpose of Onyx from what I've seen of the faction.
I'm not sure I'd go that far! Kerr Nau loves a Unidron link and becomes a real terror in Onyx. Nourkias loves the order efficiency of a Unidron castle and/or Suryat LT. If you can keep her alive, Ko Dali FTO is a terror. Linked Unidron plasma sniper with assisted fire on is an s-tier weapon that has won me many games. And you have the pretty unique Xeodron haris which is a cool playstyle. In terms of power, yes, Onyx trail miserably behind vanilla CA, but imo they remain maddeningly close to being a decent sectorial. Now if only Rodoks could offer a decent alternative to Unidrons! That's why I'd like any advice any players have about making them work. Onyx used to be a dominant hacking sectorial but have fallen way behind the curve when faced with Jazz, Anathematic, etc. So I've been toying with lists that can just swerve away from offering hacking targets as a second list when I face hack-heavy opponents, and that inevitably involves Rodok core.
They were always religious in N3, it was just rolled into the 'Morat' rule along with Veteran so a slightly lighter thwack with the nerf bat. Rodoks were a standout troop in MAF during N3 so I can see why they wanted to change them a bit but they went too far imo. A full link was quite an investment even then but it was pretty handy at most ranges and could reach some interesting attack vectors. Now, they are more expensive, have less gear and, due to the changes to Super-jump, have in effect lost their defining feature. Not a great result all in all. I honestly can't find a compelling reason to take them in N4. Maybe if you play in a very hacking heavy meta then they may be preferable to Suryats but that feels like a stretch tbh.
The biggest things I miss about N3 Rodoks is the KHD and mines. KHD Rodok was a legit threat as a solo piece, able to enter a marker state to close the gap, and then use Surprise Shot (it was rolled into marker states at the time, rather than being a skill on the profile) and Mimetism when it decided to engage in a gun fight. And then a link-team with 3/4 mine carrying models could always advance and place a mine as they moved into position to shoot something, so they did a lot to help protect your backfield. Even taking 1-2 of the 19/20 point profiles as solo pieces to coordinate lay mines was pretty useful since they were cheaper than other minelayers in MAF. In N4, I've used them as a Haris in MAF, usually either the ML + Mines + Raktorak as a backfield defense unit (if I'm not taking Vanguard + Suryat), or HMG + Paramedic + Mines as an attack unit. They're too expensive to form a Core team, and not durable/cheap/useful enough to be solo pieces, so I don't usually explore them beyond these options.
I've done all this stuff and agree with this post a whole lot. But I'd like to add in a few pointers: They've gained heavy pistols (like most morat models). This makes them have more staying power in close quarters. I would have preferred the mines, but it's not the end of the world, and helps the HMG from being overrun up close. Also, the LT option still exists in MAF, where it is more useful thanks to the NCO raktorak. I've used Rodoks both defensively as a 3 man team with the rocket launcher, and offensively as a 5-man team to play in objective-heavy mission. They have the tools to push forward, can carry multiple specialist models, and those specialists can actually shoot, something Vanguard specialists can't quite do. They are weaker than they were in N3, I agree, but by no means bad, at least not in MAF. The big problem they face currently is that they went down and everyone else went up, so it feels like they're worse than they actually are.
I think you're right that the improvement to a lot of other units made their nerf seem bigger. On reflection they maybe aren't as poor as I initially thought. There is definitely a choice to be made now rather than Rodoks being straight up the best pick, especially in MAF. I can take a HMG, ML, paramedic, hacker and mines in a Rodok team for about 135pts and 3.5 SWC. To roughly replicate that with Suryats I can take Kornak +1 order, Anyat, Raktorak, HMG tac aware and MSV HRL for about 170pts and 3 SWC. I'm gaining 3 orders, a whole lot more tools and 3 more wounds for about 40pts for a trade off of 2 hackable models and no mimetism. Now that Suryat team looks more appealing to me personally but I can't say its 100% objectively better.
I've been thinking of Rodoks plus non-khd Nourkias as a potenitally interesting core. There's a big opportunity cost, in that you can't bring cybermask Nourk, but the Rodoks can give you a bonafide alternative method to deliver him to his prey. The idea being that the Rodok core can act as the kind of 'solid rocket boosters' that fall away once Nourk is where he wants to be on the table. He also ensures that suddenly no one's that keen to try and cc your monkeys. Sixth sense and lots of template buddies could be very useful. I dunno, it's something that's gonna need a lot of play and practice.
I haven't tried it yet myself but I like the idea of using 3-man core. Norkias+Rodok HMG and whatever else.
I mucked around with an Umbra + Rodok team a bit in N3 and in the end I found I preferred the Umbra solo. I found if I was pushing the team forward to deliver the Umbra they tended to get a bit overextended. I got more mileage of using the Rodoks separately and then pushing the Umbra up solo later in the game when stuff was a bit more spread out. I am a distinctly average player so ymmv.
I'm still pretty new, but they don't seem awful, at least in the context of MAF. Decent weapons, mimetism, decent utility options, some decent specialists. Their biggest problem is that MAF units are pretty expensive, and there's a lot more important units to bring before putting points for Rodoks. Expensive Lieutenants like the Suryat/Kornak(and their Haris of friends), important mid-field pieces like the Zerat/Tyrok/Rasyat, MSV units like the Multi Yaogat. Then with your few remaining points you load up on ikadrons/daturazi/vanguards as cheerleaders. Like, I don't think they are a strong choice, they just seem fine but are pushed out by more essential units. I might try a 3-monkey core of them with a Suryat Haris, see how it goes.
Yeah they're not actively bad, just stripped of better old options and expensive. Compare them to grenzers, bolts, zhayedan, ye mao, bag mari, etc; they sit pretty low. Ye mao are probably their closest brother from another mother (BS12 Arm2 MI with superjump and mimetism -3), but they get way cooler loadouts, loads of specialist options, msv1, total terrain, chain colts for everyone, and cost the same. And Ye mao are not setting the world alight.
Well we now have confirmation that Morats are getting a refresh. What chance that CB take another look at our flying monkeys?
Since it sounds like a Military Orders level rework, we'll probably see some pretty significant changes. Rodoks are one of several real problem units right now, and I'm sure CB knows it.
Profile with LSG(+1 burst) is IMHO the most interesting profile. During active turn,it will win all f2f rolls at close range or lay down three templates.
