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ISS Reorganized

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Jan 19, 2022.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I hoping at some point the ISS is updated. But I was thinking that the story that seems to affect Infinity would/should change ISS. Not that drastically but still change. Uprising unfortunately needs to be brought up. Mainly because ISS really effed up. There's also been a Combined offensive on various worlds including Yu Jing territories on Paradiso and Dawn.

    Note! Much of this is my own thoughts and not confined to the books.

    To me, ISS is both partially the cause of it as well as failed to stop the Uprising. Partially caused by their draconian tactics against their own people in general but the Japanese in particular. Separatists were able to use those tactics to create support amongst the Japanese people. Things done throughout human history and never seem to learn. So they have the ire of the party and Emperor over at least not stopping it. Then there's PanO/JSA, who through their Warcors, broadcasts all of the atrocities committed to the whole human sphere. And then O-12 gets involved in some way.

    So how would all of this affect ISS as a force on the table?
    • They have already made some changes. In particular the inclusion of the Deva with a Lt. option. You can think of this as "oversight" by the O-12. Devas are there to watch them and lead in certain situations. They also have the ability to form a haris team with Dakini.
    • Bao are no longer a core and no longer need a Pheasant to be with them however it's still an option.
    Here's some of my suggestions for changes that are Story Driven:
    • First off, might as well do the controversial first, is to replace Kuang Shi. I'm not saying get rid of them, but change them. No longer human bombs but now robots with self-destruct. They serve the same sort of purpose on the table, but no longer political prisoners who are murdered by a handler. You can still of course use your figures for them too. I know some like "evil" police stuff but it makes no sense story-wise to keep them.
    • Kanren, the effed up of the effed up. They are supposed to be the Intel force against subversive activity. They either didn't find anything out or ignored information they had. (Shasvastii influence?) Though some of what they do is "off table", I think some of this is because they didn't have all the tools for the job. I'd like to see a few of them get full on Infiltration (maybe with a +), Parachutist, and Impersonation.
    • Direct O-12 presence. I think it would be possible they would have one O-12 troop in addition to Aleph. But I see this as being a character or some low AVA troop. Not something that's there to fight for ISS but more of an "Advisory" position. Troops like Alpha, Katherine Cho, PSI-Cops are possible.
    Now for just making a better sectoral in general.

    Really I just want a few more tools for missions.
    • More doctors and engineers! Having only one guy to accomplish two different objectives can really suck. There's also only one paramedic and it's not even true ISS. I'd either like to see the replacement of Sophotech or inclusion of the Aleph Dactyls. Or even better, a new troop that's just available to ISS! Similar to the MO Crosiers. I almost envision them as Public Service troops that help with recovery after disasters, natural or otherwise. I can even see this as being a mandatory service thing. Something citizens need to go through to get special privileges but some can make it a career. Mostly made up of Engineers, Doctors, Paramedics with light weapons mostly for defense. Maybe even Irregular troop. How about +3 to CivEvac?
    • D-Charges and DA CCW. More than only two troops please! The missions that need Anti-Material weapons already suck for many but ISS in particular. Right now it's only the AVA1 Sopohotech or the Zhanying Hacker for D-Charges. AVA1 Ninja and Crane for DA CCW.
    Fireteams.
    • There's a lack of diversity in Yu Jing fireteams. ISS only has 2 core to choose from and 4 haris. As of now I can only see a comeback of a Bao core or allowing Zhanying to form a core as well.
    Now, just because I'm greedy.
    • I want a TAG for ISS. I don't care really what type but I'd prefer a small S6 TAG meant for urban combat. It would also be focused on fighting JSA and CA too. MSV or Sensor or + to Discover or Sixth Sense, anti-CC things like PARA -6. Also hard to hack by having a Tinbot -6. Maybe finally the first TAG to have holoprojector!
    • I'd like something with a peripheral of some sort. I liked with Madtraps could move around with the Kanren. It would be cool to have our own type. Like with a ADHL/Akrylat Kanone. I guess similar to O-12 team Sirius but not them. I guess we do have Deva+Devabot but I'd like something uniquely Yu Jing.
    So what does everyone else think? How would the story so far effect the ISS?
     
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  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Just saying, there's a design out there that would be all their's if they wanted it.

    Realistically, I want MR Crane with smoke grenades, Spitfire Crane with breaker ammo, and Taowu and Pheasant to get wildcard. Zhanying get eclipse grenades, and give Crane Adil a para CCW.
    Remove fireteam access from the Hsien, and turn the MR and MMR profiles into wildcard FTOs.

    That's it. Give me that, and ISS becomes a lot more playable and interesting.
     
    #2 Weathercock, Jan 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    A Breaker Spitfire would be awesome!

    Speaking of story, Wildcard would be perfect for Pheasant. Right now their rules don't match their background. CoC is good but also a Lt. would make sense. Even Lt. +1 order or Command token. Their background says they join in assault forces and advise leaders. None of that is there. They are pretty much Bao babysitters. Breaker for them too please! E/Mitters are one of the most useless weapons. Change it to E/Marat we have something else!
     
  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'd also make the combi Wu Ming an engineer. ISS being so starved of them doesn't really make much sense anymore.

    I didn't forget about Bao, either. CB already did them properly. They're called Bluecoats, and they're in O12.
     
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  5. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    I think a +1 dmg for the multi and mmr hsien would be nice. Dmg 13 doesn't really cut it against high arm targets even with AP ammunition.

    My biggest issue though is with the kanren specialists not having mines or madtraps. When I see a Moran, guilang, shrouded or other similar troopers all the specialists do have the deployables.
    D charges for kanren...

    Other things on the wishlist: D charges for cranes! Smoke for cranes! E/M CCW or viral ccw for cranes
    I like the thought of eclipse for Zhanying, but eclipse in yu jing... that's just for nomads, cyberhoplites and aliens obviously...
    I would take some e/m mines or blitzens too. When I am daring I wouldn't say no to some pitchers and/or HD+, being the secret service and intelligence of one of the big powers one might think those thing might be there if somewhere in the faction...
    Pheasants need something to help them... I would like either marksmanship and the sniperprofil to make a comeback, or beeing the ultimate lt. with holomask and why not both... A supriseshooting sniper with marksmanship could be a devastating ARO piece.
    Bao should be true to their background Give them glue, grenades, templates, smoke, a bonus to dodge...
    What hurts the pheasants and bao the most are their restricted fireteamoptions. Even just linking with celestial guards would help them enormously.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see Pheasants become the MSV shooters and the Bao get the melee abilities and melee weapons. Other parts of the loadouts can remain the same. I think the points shouldn't shift too much. Yes, this kinda steps on Rui Shi's tiny little feet, I know.
    This does give Bao ParaCCW, though, which is very useful for capturing fools for interrogation.

    I've never found myself wanting for an engineer IN the Wu Ming fireteam, but I have found myself wishing for a cheaper engineer NEAR it. Often I'd have wanted Dactyls (AVA 2) over Sophotects, but if there's to be an Engineer in this fireteam I'd have preferred to see it on Zhanying. Speaking of Rui Shi, having one be able to join here would help a bunch. It's not quite as powerful as it used to be, and I find that running Wu Ming tends to focus SWC hard in a single spot on the board, so it kind of averages out a bit.

    And like Fed4ykin, I do agree that especially the Hsien MRifle needs extra damage MOD. Not sure about the MMMR kit, though, as that is more geared towards fireteams and the bonuses you get from there.

    I don't think MadTraps are quite working on Kanren. The general area where they deploy get so damned cluttered and it's real easy to accidentally reveal who is the real echo simply by placing the MadTrap outside range of one or both of them. I'd rather see these shift to Impersonation-2. Fully or partially for the unit (but definitely not any minelayer profile as imps).

    Honestly, I'd like to see Celestial Guards become a bit more of real agents. They're supposedly a very well funded unit and are recruited from veteran Zhanshi (not unlike Guilang). Barebones Zhanying is what I'm thinking of, which would mean +1 ARM and +1 BS, which honestly isn't actually an improvement considering the increased cost, but I do think leaning a bit more on mercs to fill orders is not inappropriate.

    Sun Tze just... go down in price already. Other than Total Immunity, Sun's stats are surprisingly bad even for units half his price. While a lot of stuff that is "utter trash" or "way too OP" in this game tends to translate to being just like 2 or 3 points off the mark, in Sun Tze's case it's more like 10 points off. Not only does it seem they forgot to add the hackable discount that HI and TAGs got, but I do think the Avatar got to avoid the incredibly punishing exponential tax on the sky high WIP stat - a stat that's not very useful even for an LT.
    He'll be hard to justify regardless without having +1 order on the LT skill.

    --

    That said, let's acknowledge what works.

    Su-Jian are still very good. They're not as shocking to face now that so many units have this level of ARM and wounds, but they get around quickly and can abuse several rules doing so.

    The faction-unique Dakini Haris is a real beast. It's frankly shocking what they can do if they get a turn to shoot stuff with Marksmanship on a HMG.

    I don't rate the Hsien Haris as highly due to the cost, but it's still very intimidating to face, particularly for opponents who rely on Mimetism.

    Lunah is the hero of the faction. Just as simple as that. Her gear is very well optimised for the meta we find ourselves in, even if the Triangulated Fire isn't nearly as useful as it sounds on snipers.

    Kuang Shi. They're very good regardless if you spend orders to go kill stuff with them or not. Yeah, I don't like them conceptually, but mechanically they're very strong (and hilariously I don't think they get any discount for being impetuous)

    With the above highly functional elements you can make a small number of quite different lists that are highly competitive. The goal shouldn't be to improve on this, but to make other list archetypes less of a false choice and to bring the different competitive lists up to par with other well designed sectorials and factions. Note: "well designed sectorials" not "crazy good strong sectorials", there's a difference.
     
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  7. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yeah, I think a Kanren's primary equipment is really geared towards making it look like just enough guests have shown up at an ISS diplomatic cocktail party. Having two creepy duplicates of yourself in the same room would actually make it harder to blend into a crowd, right?

    ISS currently has at least 3 cores: Celestial Guard, Kuang Shi and Wu Ming. Hopefully the new fireteam rules should juggle the possibilities around a little for us.
     
  8. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    You and me both. I can sort of understand in that if something has a clean cut, it's fixable compared to blow apart in many pieces. But that's all done days later!
     
  10. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I guess everyone fantasizes about slicing something in half with monofilament, as that's the cyberpunk monakatana dream.

    In rules-space terms, mono is capable of penetrating any armour and killing the squishy pilots and electronics inside. That could just as easily be with a well-targeted stab as a slice. Anti-material is then the weapons that leave the target in a few pieces... EXP+DA etc.
     
  11. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'd be more interested in having monofilament get around total immunity than have it be anti-materiel. Granted, the last thing we need is the GW-series of exceptions upon exceptions upon exceptions, but nothing in the game should be immune to being cut in half.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think a serious discussion needs to be had whether Total Immunity being immune to states is a good thing

    Were-creatures are meant to be particularly vulnerable to stun ammo and monofilament is supposed to be the final solution to any Gordian knot. Of course this will seriously affect the viability of Sun Tze which nearly no one is using, Karakuri and were-creatures largely thanks to flash pulses, that are basically more common the combi rifles, now being Stun.
     
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  13. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    Was Sun Tze ever viable? As I am not extremely experienced and never ran him because he is so damn expensive and doesn't bring so many merits besides being a fith of my army points... I mean I can take a hsien, crane or su Jian instead which aren't strategos but can actually fight.
    I don't know what WIP 17 brings me when I roll once per game for lt. I mean when I roll a 12 and my oppenent a 13 I lost the lt. Roll nonetheless and have a huge target pinned on sun. Yeah his flash pulses are impressive. But they are low burst and something will get him. Even if he could use his enormous wip as a specialist and was 10 points off I don't know if I would pick him because he starts in the deployment zone and isn't really order efficient to move around.
    I am of the opinion that he is a relic of a time when the game was different and I am unsure if even then he was a viable/reasonable pick.
    He needs help, because the model is actually beautiful.
    But I am sure there are several threads just throwing salt on this poor fella so something constructive: what about lt +1 order, +1 commandtoken and reroll of lt. roll or he rolls two dice and you choose which roll applies. Holo would be fun and in style for imperial service.
     
    #13 Fed4ykin, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    @Fed4ykin
    There was a time in N3 after the change to total immunity where I used him regularly and with decent success. Total Immunity allowed you to use his BTS 6 against all sources of damage, so coupled with his W2, NWI and Mimetism, he was a defensive road block. WIP 17 also came in clutch for his Flash Pulse, so your opponent really had to think twice before engaging him. He wasn't indestructible, but placed in cover somewhere in your backfield he was a pain to deal with for many units.
     
    #14 Knauf, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  15. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I used him the other night for panic room just because he's been on 5he shelf for years. Did OK, but sun has always been on the wrong side of being an obvious, expensive lt that's only OK in combat with only "meh" leadership abilities.
    He needs a complete rewrite imho
     
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  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking the Zhanying instead of having smoke, should have E/M Grenades. It kinda goes with their Breaker ammo.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    E/M Grenades on a PH10 unit is points bloat, not actually useful equipment. It's dubious at PH12 at best, but PH10 is just way too low for anything other than maybe targetless grenade
     
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  18. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Something that came to mind during our late-night ravings yesterday:

    How about an ISS specific Su-Jian loadout with a sniper rifle? It's already somewhat of a poster unit for ISS, so they totally deserve the newest variant, right?

    Mobility Form and Climbing plus would help it reposition to get multiple angles. Reduce CC to save points, add Mim -3 and +1B on the MSR, replace the secondary weaponry with a Nanopulser for emergency use, nothing too effective though, as this should be designed for long range. Maybe an E/Mitter or ADH Launcher for short distance ARO.

    Albedo could also be a nice option to make it unique compared to Lunah and Dakini MSR. Maybe TacAware or NCO to get some more mileage out of that MOV stat.
     
    #18 Knauf, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Some have mentioned bringing back Nimbus or giving them smoke. Sure PH10 sucks but hopefully they wouldn't increase in price. Still pretty good if get within 8".

    I'd also like them to get a KHD. Many times I've thought ISS should have a special section that only goes up against hackers and rouge AI.

    Sounds cool but a bit OP I think. I do like the idea of special ISS one though. How about Madtraps and/or Riotstopper? To me, the speed and climbing is for getting closer to the enemy. Not staying far away.

    I've wanted the Su Jian to be in White Banner since was first mentioned. I can't think of a troop that's more suited to Mountainous and arctic terrain fighting Jotums.
     
  20. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Literally Jingwei
     
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