1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Unconscious, camouflage and cautious move

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Tanan, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Arguably, declaring an order is the entire declaration of the Order Structure and not just the step that is spending the order token. All At Once would also agree in spirit, as without All At Once applying to the activation step in a similar manner you'd apply the above interpretation to ARO generation as well - which is when the game would break completely.
    Also, of course, keeping in mind that steps 1 and 3 has the active trooper "declares the <nth> Short Skill of the Order", so they do declare parts of the order.

    Though I do agree that the use of "Order" isn't well thought out and should be "An enemy Trooper activates within its Line of Fire (LoF)." just like for AROs.

    A somewhat separate question is whether a Turret reacts to an Automatic Reactive Order as well?
     
  2. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
    CB Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    4,137
    The intention of the rule is that unconscious enemy troopers dont affect to activate the camuflage state or prevent the cautious movement.

    We take note about this for the next FAQs.

    Also, about markers, tokens or miniatures for Cautions movement: I have to talk it with the rest of the team, to decide what happens not only with the Wildparrot or turrets, also with crazy koalas.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    @HellLois re: Turrets and Wild Parrots. I'm not sure the underlying issue was spelled out clearly.

    It's actually an entirely separate question, it just interacts with this one.

    A FastPanda is ALWAYS a Model irrespective of how it is actually represented on the table - this is 100% clear as it states: "the user of this piece of Equipment can deploy the FastPanda Model".

    A Deployable Repeater is ALWAYS a Token irrespective of how it is represented on the tdble - this, again, is 100% clear as it states: "the Trooper places a Deployable Repeater Token (REPEATER)."

    As a result there is no ambiguity as to how these two interact with Cautious Move and similar.

    The issue is that Wild Parrots and ITS13 Turrets can be either a token or a model depending on how their player chooses to represent them: this ambiguity is the issue.

    Are Wild Parrots and ITS13 Turrets models that can be proxied by tokens or are they tokens that can be proxied by models?

    The same ambiguity exists for Perimeter Weapons as they're only ever referred to as a 'weapon' never as a Token or a Model.
     
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    I don't think that's anywhere close to 100% clear. I find it hard to believe that FastPandas are intended to stop Cautious Movement within their LoF, but revealed Mines aren't. I see what you're saying RAW, but "100% clear" doesn't seem warranted here. Since @HellLois is in the neighborhood, I'm hoping for an answer from him on what's intended for FastPandas as well as for WildParrots and Turrets.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Is it at all ambiguous? Nope.

    Then it's 100% clear that Fast Panda are Models, and it's 100% clear that Mines are Tokens.

    No idea whether it's intended or not but that irrelevant to a question of clarity.

    My point is as to note that the issue with Cautious Move and Wild Parrots stems from the fact that the nature of Wild Parrots IS ambiguous.

    Part of the reason I raise this, is at various times we've had missions where Models score. I've laughed and then promptly used things like Fast Pandas to score (because they're unequivocally a model). So the ambiguity as to whether or not a Wild Parrot is a model or not is broader than and separate to the question about Cautious Movement.

    Whether or not a FastPanda should prevent Cautious Movement is another and separate question (but unambiguously at present they do).
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Token and Model are not written to be mutually exclusive, rather Model is defined in a very, very, broad way. Ideally, I think, an FAQ that specifies that Deployable Equipment and Weapons should never be treated as Models/Miniatures unless explicitly mentioned as such would solve several of these adjacent issues.

    I'd point out that all equipment placed by the Place Deployable skill will be placing Tokens. FastPandas, Mines and WildParrots are all explicitly Tokens.
     
    RolandTHTG likes this.
  7. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    209
    I thinks it’s pretty obviously once again that CB hasn’t thought out how models/markers/tokens/whatever interact with various game mechanics and scenarios. RAI is not clear and hopefully the future faq addresses this issue.

    As a personal note, if @HellLois is watching this thread please add clarification to faq what happens to non-spearhead peripheral (control) troopers, if spearhead trooper goes unconscious.
     
    Lawson likes this.
  8. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
    CB Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    4,137
    I know, and I saw it. That's why I said I have to talk with the team. Because there is ambiguity in some cases, and we have to fix it. And they have to work like tokens, represented with models.


    We have to consider that Model and token arent mutually exclusive
    Model
    Game element with Attributes represented on the table by a miniature.
    Token
    Game element that represents a piece of Deployable Equipment or a Deployable Weapon.
     
    Methuselah, RolandTHTG and Mahtamori like this.
  9. When I read this I can only smile.

    More than half of the discussions about rules can be precisely summed up in RAW vs. RAI.
    If a rule is not written the way it is intended to work ... clarity is far from achievable.
     
    Tanan and QueensGambit like this.
  10. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    Just to make people aware of the other Null labeled state: Disconnected.
    Are the above mentioned interactions with this state handled analog to Unconcious?
     
  11. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    209
    I think it only applies to unconscious troopers. Immobilized or disconnected troopers prevent recamo. Also note that disconnect doesn’t turn off automatic skills. For example Batard (a very popular trooper) can be disconnected and still prevent recamo in its ZoC because of Sensor.
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    And also Possessed TAGs ;)
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,886
    Likes Received:
    11,260
    Disconnected troops should not be providing such benefits in my opinion, I think if a model counts as dead at the end of the game (does not count towards the players VP's) it should be treated the same way an unconscious model is.
     
    Tristan228 likes this.
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Another reminder about Possessed State ;)

    Perhaps the criteria ought to be that states that prevent troopers from performing orders should not have these effects?
     
  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,886
    Likes Received:
    11,260
    That is a good observation.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation