Mercs getting to be too much?

Care to elaborate on what those reasons are?

A limit on a mediocre mid-tier mercenary that gives you access to a lesser version of an archetype isn't the same as a limit on a faction defining piece.

I really don't see the issue with the mercenaries.

 

To make sure we're on the same page, I think the issue with mercenary was that you could make a list that was void of faction identity, but not that lore-wise the troopers were mercenary.

With that in mind... What faction are we talking about here? Vanilla YJ?

Monstrucker is definitely great.

Basic line troopers in vanilla are not something you want, regardless of mercenaries existing. ABH are not particularly interesting in vanilla either, filler at best.

Krakot are pretty mediocre, they embody the statement I posted above. Where you get an archetype of a trooper (warband) that is just a slightly worst version than the actual good trooper of that archetype. Passable for factions without access to warbands who wants to fill int he slot such as PanO, but not interesting for YJ that have access to top tier warbands with the monks.

For Lunah and beastmaster, I we don't have the issue of list without faction identity. Lunah has very limited representation outside of YJ and the Beastmaster have faction-based profiles.

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You can certainly fill your list with mediocre mercenaries up to 15 troopers, but it's going to be a mediocre list, but you have the option to if you want to have a mercenary flavoured list.

Again, I really don't see the issue.

 

The problem with the widespred availability of so many mercenaries is that they start to fill spots in the armies that were not available, or that came with a caveat.

Taking my main Faction as an example, Tohaa, before we only had the Gao-Tarsos as our parachuist option. It is very good, but not cheap. Then, enter the Cube Jagger. It is generally worse, but also cheaper, and maybe some times it'll be a better option if you just need a parachuist able to drop on turn 3 and grab a box or push a button to win you the game.

 

The cube Jagger couldn't be a better example of mercenary mostly being bad versions of stuff so that people with no access to something can somehow field them.

Also, the argument that cube jagger are a negative to the game because they are filling spots in Tohaa (or any faction for that matter) is a complete joke, I'm being trolled, right? Lmao.

 

Problem is where it's going- Mercenaries are getting more and more common, more optimised and more integrated. We already have a game where it's next to impossible to build a genuinely optimal list without Characters, and Mercs aren't far behind. A lot of people seem fine with that, but I'm one of the types who prefers my faceless mooks in matching armour over the Snowflake Squad, and the current direction is turning me off the game quite seriously- I haven't even considered a purchase in about a year now.

 

Ya that doesn't sound like a good direction to go in. Optimal lists should be able to be built with or without characters. It gives the player choice & options on style/strategy instead of being funneled into a certain type.

I remember during N3 this seemed to be the case but as the dawn of N4 came closer I too noticed the amount of characters increasing. It would have been a waste to make the named character undesirable to place in your lists. They are supposed to be a notch better than the faceless mooks otherwise why have a/that character in the game or your list? This increase in characters added with the wildcard ability given to nearly all of them means they'll naturally show up more & more. Making peoples' lists seem similar to each others. Unless you get a character like Su-Ra Kwon. Which is an example of a character that is not better than the unit she is supposed to roll with. She is wasted space on the roster of Yu Jing in the eyes of most players from what I have heard on the forum at least.

 

The simple solution is to remove all mercs from factions where they don't serve a point and everyone will be happier.

We're slowly inching towards a system with a shared set of basic troopers the way mercs are being added and I think the game in general will be healthier if they pick a system rather than have both - either we have these shared basic troopers where the outstanding troopers define a faction or we have the previous version where each faction is micro-managed. Whether a merc is excellent or not also isn't the entire equation, either, as mercs also give additional options and I think the community has already established that vanilla is better than sectorials simply by virtue of having more options.
Limitations are at least as important as options to game and faction design.

 

What I meant is that Factions are supposed to be lacking in certain aspects while doing better in others; having widespread access to so many mercenaries means that Factions start to play more similarly as those differences dilute.

 

Mercs also disproportionately benefit factions that their profiles support; for example PanO uses pretty much only the Krakot, ever, while Yu Jing uses them quite heavily to fill weaknesses in the lower price range and Ariadna gets access to advanced weapons.

 

I think this is where CB is going with this cross-pollination of Mercs. The way factions are differentiating from each other is their outstanding troopers. For example Knights, Aquila & Swiss Guard in PanO & Zuyongs, Haidaos & Wu Ming in Yu Jing. Certain units will stand out among the crowd and give their faction it's identity in looks, skills, loadouts & playstyle. I for one would rather have the micro-managed way where each faction has differences/weaknesses in how well they can accomplish gameplay tasks, list building & playstyles. But we will see how this situation plays out in the coming months ahead.

 

One interesting thing to note about characters is that on the "new" Infinity Universe website, most sectorials are advertised using their heroes, and not common troopers (with few exceptions, like haqq sectorials and JSA).

 

That's not true. But it can be true for your meta/bubble.
I have bought all Mercs available to my army, because I absolutely love them and their offbeat look in comparison to the rest off the army. I also like mercs (even Octavia). Taking them away from my army will make me sad!

And if I recall correctly, taking away anything from anyyone - like JSA from Yu Jing or HMGs from Troops with combat jump and making the miniatures obsolete has never made anyone happier.

A better solution could be an option, were you can turn mercenaries on and off in Army6. It is like a filter. The purists would get their clean Army and the completionists would keep their mercs.

 

I suppose that is true. I'm more concerned about the effect of making named characters too appealing to pass up. Making you feel as though you shot yourself in the foot for not taking them when it should just be a question of choice or playstyle preference.

 

I wouldn't be averse to a system where Zhanshi, Fusiliers, Kappa, etc shared a similar "inner sphere light infantry" style unit and profile set as the difference between them isn't all that interesting. I'm just a tad worried that this is starting to happen to more specialised options as the mercs are getting complicated and competent in nature.
It's also making the factions... bland.

It's fair that there's a lot of people who just want all of the things and will play all of the things, but I don't think that is a good way to go to build a health game when viewed from a more macro perspective. The "everyone will be happier" was more a dig at the idea that most of these mercs were not good enough to matter.
I think a game with several factions need to pose the choice to their players to compromise what set of units they have access to in order to make the factions worthwhile and meaningful, I think it makes both the game and the factions more interesting when factions are intentionally designed to have both outstanding units and bad, but necessary, units.

Uprising made a lot of people happy. Probably for the wrong reasons, but still. Now, just because CB handled that in one of the worst ways they could isn't a reason to not pursue positive change in the future. Add to it that in this thread we're specifically discussing things that by their very definition do not belong to a faction, it is virtually impossible for CB to do an Uprising handling of things here.

And to be clear, some mercenaries do belong in certain factions. Migrating them all over to the mercs extra isn't going to be healthy just because they are technically a mercenary, but most of them should make that migration in most of the factions they are currently available, I think. After all, units like Krakots have been stealing design space from factions for years now, even if that design space is less important now that jammers aren't as important to have an answer for.

 

I've always been of the opinion that the ITS mini should be an ABH, every year, with a good bit of effort into making the sculpt fit the seasonal theme- like doing a scrappy space merc for Stakeout or one in biker gear for the current season.

 

I think there's ways to manage both simultaneously.

If the ITS Mercs are only of limited duration (my preference 2 Seasons - the season in which they first appear and then the next one) and then get moved to factions where they fit as a meaningful design choice and to Soldiers of Fortune you remove the 'clutter' both meaningful (ie. Knauf stepping on Intruders in Vanilla Nomads) and meaningless (Cube Jager 'competing' with Tomcats in Vanilla Nomads) while retaining the profiles in the game.

Then you need to make Soldiers of Fortune a decent relatively 'default' choice: I like the +1SWC and max 75pts, but the issue is some profiles are just so good that they're pretty much must takes (McMurder and Yojimbo being the two clearest examples). There's several ways to do this, but they all required actual effort to curate what is available (either across the board or on a faction by faction basis).

This meets a design goals of de-cluttering Vanilla to make it less confusing to new players (who often bounce of the bewildering array of mostly irrelevant choices) , keeping ITS/LE mercs as a widely accessible thing to all players and opening up design space without needing to face the inevitable 'this is just that Merc but worse' comparisions.

 

They seem to aim for Infinity the Universe.
I guess, there is spill over between everything. The boardgames will recieve new stuff, which is packed into new Infinity boxes and vice versa.

Better get used to it, than getting salty, I guess. Having the option to use units is not that bad.

And if you really get into Infinity via Tag RAID you have some first minis for your faction.