Nanoespionage vs CC attack

Its a normal roll, because the Nanoespionage interacts in no way with the CC attack. The fact that she can die from it will not make it a FtF. Imagine someone is trying to hack a console and triggers an ARO from a hidden sniper ... no face to face.

 

I don't think the rules address whether classified objective skills are F2F. Classifieds of course aren't in the base rules.

That reasoning doesn't work. For example, CC attack vs. Oblivion is F2F, even though Oblivion doesn't "interact" with the CC attack.

I'd say probably it's F2F because Nanoespionage targets the Guilang and CC Attack targets Fiddler. But afaik a definitive answer isn't in the rules.

 

Nanoespionage doesn't affect the target, so it won't be a F2F roll. Just like if you shot a trooper using Doctor or Engineer on itself.

 

Otoh, a flash pulse doesn't affect a dog warrior, but still creates a F2F roll.

In that scenario, the troopers aren't mutually targeting each other.

I can't think of any scenario in the base rules where A is targeting B and B is targeting A, but the roll isn't f2f (except with Berserk or direct templates of course). Classifieds are unique in that you target a trooper for a purpose that's unrelated to the target itself.

 

The word "affect" isn't defined anywhere in the rule, so you gotta play the guessing game of what does it mean.

We do however have a precedent for things only caring about the fact that both are targeting each other for being considered "affecting" each other. (See how Flash Pulse is FtF even vs a Total Immune trooper)

 

Flash Pulse affect Total Immune trooper because you are declaring a BS Attack vs a BS Attack or Dodge. Remember that Total Immune is inactive during BS Attack declarations. Even when you compare skills requirements and calculate MODs, Total Immune is still Inactive as you have not yet met the skill requirements. So it has to be FtF. The Immunity skill requirement are only met when "the Trooper must make a Saving Roll", which might even not happen at all during that Order if for instance the flash BS Attack has whiffed. Why would the BS Attack be a non-FtF when the Immunity requirement are not even met during that whole Order ? So I agree with the FAQ ruling and I think this ruling does not impact the definition of affecting each other.

 

Does it matter that they "will potentially affect" each other or not, or does it simply matter that they "affect" each other?

The wording says "both Troopers must affect each other directly" not "both Troopers need potentially affect each other directly".

One of the two trooper (or maybe both) is never going to be applying any attack results the other one, but they still somehow "affect each other directly" for the purpose of the Face to Face.

 

Well, if you remove potentially from the equation, then by definition BS Attacks vs BS Attack do affect each other. It is only when you add future skills triggering that you realize that potentially that specific BS Attack weapon (the flash pulse) will actually do nothing against that specific Target. Another example : a BS Attack Pistol against a BTS12 Bioimmune Deva SpecOp has potentially no chance to affect it but we still consider that they affect each other for the purpose of FtF.

 

How about this.
Flash pulse against total immune: I'm trying to stun you.
Combi rifle against Jotum in cover: I'm trying to wound you.
Nano espionage vs cc: I'm trying to score ON you.

 

Normally I would say that this qualifies as a face to face because Nanoespionage is directly affecting* the trooper targeted, however, Nanoespionage specifies that you make "a Normal WIP Roll" (bold emphasis added).

* I strongly do not think it is up to us, the players, to try and make some form of ad hoc judgement call on whether something is "affecting" based on anything other than game mechanics.

 

The golden word there is ATTACK. Flash Pulse is still an Attack, even if a Dog Warrior cannot be affected by it.

Nanoespionage (like any other Classified apart the combat-related two) is not an Attack.

 

"Attack" has nothing to do with whether it is a face to face or not - that is just a label that's present on all current skills that affect other troopers. The important word is still "affect", meaning if Immunity Total was not gated by a requirement of being affected by an attack, it would've caused Flash Pulse to not FTF it.

 

Any Attack vs Attack is resolved as FtF roll.
Any Dodge vs Attack is resolved as FtF roll.
Any Reset vs Comms Attack is resolved as FtF roll.

All other interactions are Normar rolls.

I think that exceptions to these three lines are very rare.

 

That is still your interpretation of things. The rules are clear, it is written in bold, and we do not need to re-write them to set ourselves up for failure. The section on Face to Face does not even use the word "attack". Dodge and Reset are exceptions in that they require opponent to perform an Attack or a Comms Attack respectively against the Trooper.

In short, let's stop spreading "smoke dodge" and other counter-productive short-hands.

https://infinitythewiki.com/Rolls#Face_to_Face_Rolls

For actions to be resolved with a Face to Face Roll, both Troopers must affect each other directly. If either action does not affect the outcome of the other, use Normal Rolls instead.

 

The strongest argument I feel for why some of the classifieds that target an opponent's model is a normal roll is because the classified card explicitly states it is being done as a normal roll.

But this is also similar to data scan an enemy model that isn't unc, and so if that is not just a "normal roll" then I dont see how this is different.

But outside the reason of "classified card says so", this seems to fall under "affect each other directly" that is listed under ftf.

 

I would say Oblivion indeed interacts with CC because after a successful Oblivion, you are not able to attack anymore this round. That is missing with Nanoespionage, its only for fullfilling a CO it will not hurt or change something that is negative/positve for the model (i.E. Spotlight will get you a target state).

 

None of the things listed in the thread answers the question of what "affect" is. They're just player-made reasoning to try and justify a top-down design that isn't explicitly told. Trying to justify something that doesn't have text with imagery of the game "simulation" is completely useless for rules purposes.

Whether the trooper is punched, kicked, wounded, stunned or what not doesn't mean anything in the rule.

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The only thing we have is that... "both Troopers must affect each other directly" in english.
Or... "the actions of both Troops must affect each other" in spanish.

We know for a fact that a BS Attack vs BS Attack (or any attack on either side) is going to be a Face to Face, regardless of the outcome (a failed BS Attack, doesn't wound, but still makes it a Face to Face), regardless of the effect of the attack. We also have a FAQ that explains that even if you are Total Immune, a flash pulse will still "affect" you for the purpose of FtF.

This means that whatever "affect" is isn't tied to the outcome, but to the fact that the attack target the opponent. If we go by that definition instead, it also works for every single situations in the game (the only Face to Face exception being the ones that explicitly calls it such as Berserk).

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This is about as much as we have to go, and any decision is going to be purely speculative on what the RAI is.

I personally think that doing a classified targeting something could potentially be a FtF, it doesn't have anything more or less that is required by the rules that the other orders possible have or don't have.

However, the explicit "normal roll" wording on the card makes me tilt torward the RAI for the card to always be a normal role.

 

"affect" isn't game terms just because they are pivotal words for these interactions. Lower case words are meant to be simple English definitions of the words and not game terms. So we turn to a dictionary:

Definition of affect
(Entry 1 of 3)

transitive verb

: to produce an effect upon (someone or something):

(Entry 2 and 3 are to do with appearances and social emotion). In other words, it's a face to face as soon as two hostile to each other troopers declare skills that causes a roll and that puts an effect on the opponent. This could mean literally anything as long as it happens to the other trooper.
As a small addition to the Pandora box, and to nip that in the bud immediately - just like Nanoespionage, Discover says the unit has to pass a "Normal WIP roll" (and Normal Rolls are defined), otherwise Discover would qualify for Face to Face rolls as well.

So. BS Attack effect is the opponent to make an ARM roll - qualifies. Smoke causes the effect on the table and the trooper derives the effect on them from the state of the table - doesn't qualify. Nanoespionage/Discover/Berserk CC Attack specifically states it is a normal roll which specifically a face to face is not - doesn't qualify.

 

Nice catch on the Discover.