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Nomad TAGs are Different?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by karush, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree. Mysteries are great, figuring out an answer from clues, you are not preaching to the choir but the priest.

    The issue is the nomad TAGs are designed differently, and occam's razor points to it being not fluff based but a real world cause. It can be fixed but isn't. And that is the problem. Our TAGs have more in common with N3 TAGs than with N4 ones.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    The game design could be as simple as "Nomad TAGs don't have Courage to make them different", Occam's razor here could be simply "They are that way because it was intended" in which case there's nothing to fix. You can disagree of course but short of pinning down Gutier for an interrogation that's about it.

    Maybe a portion of repair costs come out of the Nomad TAG pilot's pay for a mission, that'd cause me to seek cover from incoming fire!
     
  3. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    I am going to assume the repair cost thing is a joke to relieve tension. But I do disagree, occam's razor points to a misstep in beta testing during an astonishingly bad year for the company (and the world). It is a simple fact, Courage was not universal on TAGs in N3, but in N4 it is except for on TAGs from one specific faction; the faction we know they use as a baseline for all other factions. And I mean it is universal, TAGs that had it nested in other rules kept it, and TAGs that did not have courage or religious got it. The only exceptions at that time were the Nomad TAGs. It seems more likely they made a miss-step and did not bring the nomad TAGs in line with the rest of the TAGs, likely because of deadlines and covid (not ruling out the rabid moose theory though). But they don't print codices like another game, they do everything online, it can be fixed.

    You could be right, maybe we'd see something about seeking cover in nomad doctrine. But we don't see that. We see talk of using TAGs to breach ships (Gecko), or "the Iguana squad emphasizes the physical and *mental* training of their pilots." (Iguana) and living in the "midst of fire and also spit it." (salamander, deadalus falls, pg 82). Those descriptions make it sound like they'd have courage. If they were not meant to have it, breaking from TAG tactics and doctrine universal to the human sphere, we would have more direct proof positive just as we do for the extensive training of Guijia pilots that allows them to super jump without needing thrusters (RPG TAG book, forgot the name). Instead we have loads of fluff talking about nomads living on the edge and dying to protect their home and we know their TAGs are described as being courageous under dire straits.

    So I have to ask, where is the proof positive. Not a supposition, but a stated place that directly comments on why the nomads would break from normal TAG doctrine. Because from their stated tactics in fluff and the TAG profiles, it sounds like they should. From literally every other TAG in the game at the time of N4's release, it sounds like they should. I love CB, but I also know mistakes happen. I just hope they read this post and fix it.
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Sorry, you said you didn't think it was fluff based, that's why I suggested it could be a way to distinguish them mechanically. To give Nomad TAGs a small drawback in exchange for their top tier repeater network, AD Engineers, and inexpensive elite hackers.

    Edit: Though in a society where every lungful of air and every drop of water has to be paid for, soldiers being at least partly responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of their own kit would not be completely unthinkable, and not without precedent in a military either.
     
    #64 colbrook, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    Errhile and RolandTHTG like this.
  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Because they're a business and cool tags sell?
     
  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Apologies if I missed this in all the posts, but one thing to remember re: Courage is that the manned ones either had it nested in N3 or can have it explained by the religious fervor.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    No, I still have the N3 app and wiki on my phone. Some manned TAGs like Annie have Courage listed, others have it as part of Remote Presence or Martial Arts, but the Nomad TAGs, Gorgos, and Guijia didn't have courage in N3.

    The Guijia gained it in N4 along with Super-Jump and some actual CC ability, but the Gorgos and Nomad TAGs did not gain it. I guess you could argue that the Guijia gained Courage as part of Martial Arts, even though those skills were de-nested in N4.

    Hey! There's another TAG that doesn't have Courage, the Gorgos!
     
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is an interesting question, Nomads, as a whole, but mostly depending on the mothership, have a disproportionate wealth to their size as a nation, but also have odd moneypits to loose their wealth, there is definitely enouph wealth (and theoretical expertise) for Nomads to build their own TAGs, if they choose to, that if is the crucial part, Nomads military technology seems to be centered around Remotes and this is were they seem to put most research and development, another sector they utilize though it is not visible on the table is their air superiority crafts (who use uplifted dolphins as pilots) and hacking technology, remotes in particular show an interest in cheap, mobile and disposable weapon platforms that extend the tactical hacking network as a preference in military research and technology.

    The plethora of TAGs Nomads have is not by design, but a happenstance of bulk buying everything PanO had for sale when they moved form Lizard series to stingray series, that been said the Lizard series were obsolete upon purchase, so an extensive research and development budget has been used on them to bring them to the level they are now as military TAGs.

    The short answer is yes, they probably can build their own TAG and maybe their own TAG series, but they choose to use their funds elsewhere.

    It opens a good speculation though on an alternative history were Nomads did not have the opportunity to buy and upgrade obsolete PanO TAGs, what would they develop instead.
     
  9. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    So why does that logic not apply to the 5 main factions with half or a quarter as many TAGs in the game?
     
  10. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    No need for apologies, you are one of the better people to talk to here. Yeah I came up with it being a real world answer because the fluff explicitly does not support cowardly TAGs. Nomad TAG doctrine (which we have surprisingly good amount of writing on) does not support the cowardly TAG theory. The gecko and iguana are explicitly easy to repair and maintain and as part of the reptile series it can be extrapolated to the Lizard, Anaconda pilots are Nomad TAG pilots with courage, etc... I have exhausted the fluff on this one.

    So either the fluff is wrong and the rules are right, or an error occurred during beta testing and the nomads missed a concerted effort to make TAGs courageous/religious. I love CB, and beta testing is hard even without a global pandemic. I just want the errors fixed.

    P.S. yes militaries are definitely capable of such chicanery, making soldiers pay for bullets, meals, etc. But I'd need to see an indication of that in the Nomad fluff. Most of what I see is quite the opposite, you give yourself to the cause and you get certain privileges... which in some cases is another breath of air :P
     
  11. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget the Maghariba, it was even an example in the core rulebook of failing a guts role.

    And yep, the Gorgos. Listed him in my original post on courage, it was separate post as I made the observation later but it is easy enough to search for. I also think it's fair to believe that a discontinued TAG, in a discontinued faction, that now lacks a starter box did not receive the same amount of beta testing as other TAGs. But it was included in the original post for the sake of completeness. The fact that the single most likely TAG to not receive attention and also lacks courage kind of supports my point rather than hurt it though.
     
  12. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    One thing I will never complain about is the writing for this game. So nice to have a universe that is not grim dark but also feels lived in you know?
     
  13. TacCom

    TacCom Member

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    This is more a personal anecdote but something to keep in mind when it comes to how/why CB still makes/remakes Nomad TAGs even though they arn't supposed to be a TAG faction. The look cool as heck.

    Personally I picked up the Gecko and Iguana box prior and probably at some point will get Szallzy. And still to this day I put them into lists and play them. Not out of any sense of effectiveness or optimization. But because they just look amazing and I field them knowing they are sub-par. When I build a list to go all out I struggle to even fit much in the way of HI from all the toys that end up on the table and that's ok for that kind of environment. When having a fun game it doesn't matter what are the best options, you take what you want to play.

    The other thing to keep in mind is this is a miniatures game. And emphasis on miniatures. Believe or not there are quite a few people who buy minis solely to build/paint and even players who will do the same. My wife is such an example. She has a good number of PanO and Aleph models at this point, enough to play, but they pretty much never will. It's solely a painting passion project. So if you are wracking your brain about why would CB as a company continue to make these models even if they may perhaps be subpar in comparison, they answer may end up being rather simple. People are still buying them. And the reasons they are buying them don't need to be perfectly logical reasons either.
     
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