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Active turn numbers for vanilla

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by QueensGambit, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    So I brought an Anaconda to be my Shakush. I am sure it definitely shall need pinning and it will be my first attempt. Any tips you can provide?
     
  2. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    Tips about pinning?
    Buy a good drill for a metal, that's the first thing. Than you can use a driller, if you have some precise one, or just do it manually using scalpel handle for example. I use both options, depending on the thickness of drill (the thinner, the easier to crack). Then get a wire with diameter close to the drill and glue those parts together.
    There's really nothing hard in it, just a bit of work.
    I'm pinning almost all of my minis and there were times when it definitely helped, like when my older Ragik fell of on the floor and not even a single wing was broken - because I pinned even those ;)

    You can see my typical pinning set in this photos of working on Rahman:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    About the topic - I think I'll try Shakush in our next tournament, 250 pts, with Halloween scenarios. I'm planning to use version with AP Spit - to make him my hunter-killer guy, to get into better ranges than most heavy guns (HMG, Sniper, ML) and destroy them in active turn. Shakush plus Knauf plus Shihab would be my heavy guns, with Daylamis et cetera.
    But your posts made me think if not create a second armylist in which Shakush would have HMG, to be more ARO - oriented. It would be interesting also.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  3. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    I had run all of these numbers at the beginning of N4. Tested against about 20 different ARO pieces. I can say with confidence that Knauf is objectively the most reliable gunfighter in Haqqislam and has a ridiculous chance of wounding virtually everything. He only falls off vs MSV, and even there he's not bad, but just mediocre.

    I reject the hypothesis to take a Shakush for the MSV AROs and leverage smoke for everything else. And I'm completely bewildered by the posts complaining about Haqq's poor chances and lack of options vs certain fireteam AROs. We have the best answer imaginable. Fidays.

    You dont need smoke tricks. You dont need to put 50+ points into a TAG. You dont need to struggle with an inferior weapon. You have Fidays. Two of them if you want. All you need to do is kill one, single member of the fireteam OR the MSV piece itself and then from there you're ok. I would strongly argue that Haqq has literally the best tool in the game for dealing with fireteams: Impersonation. If there's a scary fireteam you just need to scalpel one single member out and proceed from there.

    So you take Knauf and a Fiday. Knauf shoots virtually everything. The Fiday scalpels the things he can't shoot. And you smoke the rest. You've solved nearly every problem you'll have for 60 points. Job done. I've been playing a list with 2x Fiday and Knauf for almost a year now. It's awesome.
     
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  4. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely right, haquisslam has amazing pieces, like always had, to do harm, to kill that "piece", but the point here if I'm not missing something, was talking about the kind of profiles with Long range weapons and a decent active burst, in order to kill in active turn. We can be considered lucky because we have others tools, but what I believe @QueensGambit was looking here was too about "what can we do if the other options fails", "can we do use of some big muscle?" The answer looks like "probably better not" :D

    (What I like more of haquisslam is precisely this kind of game where you have "weaked units" which can do a lot of harm. Do you see that troup? Yes, that one which you almost no care the entire game... It has only one wound... yes... not a great BS... yes... but sitill it has these weapon and these skill sets... and look!! it is too close to your last specialist... do you need that specialist to win, right? It is sad... both are now in a better place, safer and confi, yes, the miniature's bag". :P )
     
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  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't disagree with this. Knauf vs. a Karhu that's down one fireteam member is 80% to wound, 9% to get wounded, 6% to get killed. Those are good odds. I don't love the risk of losing a key shooter in the active turn, but 6% isn't too bad (I'm assuming we have a doctor to deal with the 9% risk).

    On the other hand, against the same weakened Karhu, the Shakush is 72% to wound, 7% to get wounded, 3% to get wounded twice. I like those odds better - an 8% higher chance of having to spend an extra order, but virtually no risk of losing the Shakush. And the Skakush also brings the extra order to spend :-)

    To others' points - my purpose is to explore the options systematically so that we can make informed choices, not to prove which option is best. Based on the numbers so far, I plan to keep testing the Shakush hypothesis for now - I like the risk mitigation/durability, the ARO potential, and the tactical awareness. The numbers also help me decide when to take a shot with the Shakush, vs. when to use other tools. But the numbers do also show that Knauf is a great shooter, as well as helping to quantify the risk involved in using a 1W ARM1 attack piece.
     
  6. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, you're both right. There's no harm at all in a systematic analysis. It's very useful.
     
  7. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
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    Can we borrow you to JSA for a few posts after this? :d
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Tried out the Azra'il today, and he was delightful. I think he must have incinerated half my opponent's army, starting with a Proxy Mk.4 HRL and going from there. AP+fire certainly feels destructive, there's a visceral satisfaction to watching the opponent just keep rolling armor saves, even if the target was unconscious after the first fail anyway.

    Post-game numbers check:

    Against the Mk.4, Azzy is 57% to wound, 41% to put unconscious, 28% to kill outright. 9% to suffer a wound and 4% to suffer two.

    A Shakush would have been 55% to wound, 21% to put unconscious, 5% to kill. 7% to suffer a wound and 3% to suffer two.

    Knauf: 63% to wound, 32% to put unconscious, 12% to kill. 9% to get wounded and 6% to die.

    Interesting. Azzy has the best numbers against this target in my opinion: excellent chance to wound, and surprisingly good chance to unconscious or kill, for a low risk. Knauf has a slightly better chance to wound, but a worse chance to do 2+ wounds and a significantly worse risk. That said, all of them are quite satisfactory against this target.

    Also, a note on the "just kill it with a Fiday" approach: I had second turn, and my Fiday did excellent work being a threat to the opponent's Dakini fireteam - he spent basically his entire first turn getting rid of it. Sure, I could have deployed it to threaten the Mk.4 instead, but having the Azra'il to deal with the Mk.4 freed up the Fiday for the much more effective task.
     
  9. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    Nice discussion, and thanks for sharing the numbers! It does really help keep in perspective that, as has been stated previously, our best option is usually not the direct 'big gunz shoot off' FtF engagement when presented with tough AROs. I rarely have more than one regular trooper (and sometimes 0) who can engage in a positive range beyond 24". Unfortunately, that does mean that sometimes the table layout means I have a tough time haha
     
  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    It's interesting to see that the Mukhtar red fury has fallen out of fashion, or at least isn't considered eligible to engage enemy pieces on long range ARO duty. Even setting aside the fact that she can make 6" cautious moves to close to within that 24" gap, I'd take the F2F roll at 32" through smoke vs that Q-Drone in the original post (or 33"+, if I could get it).

    I'd also make the point that the although the thread has correctly identified that the Azra'il is not a rampart sweeper, I'd encourage people not to write it off. The selection of targets it's ideal against is limited to generally just unlinked models like TAGs but the ability to threaten those pieces can be significant since they can be highly resistant to e.g. a Fiday closing to within shotgun range. It's also a nice piece to stand up in a similar role later in the game once everything has gotten messy and the big guns on each side are petering out, at which point he becomes a surprisingly capable poor man's ARO piece, being more threatening than the Shakush in that role in terms of the risk profile he presents to the opponent.
     
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  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The lists I've been building recently (barely tested as yet) have included both a Shakush or Azra'il for the long range, and a Mukhtar for midfield clearing. I left the Mukhtar out of the stats comparison because I'd already decided I wanted her as my midfield operator, so I was more focused on who I wanted as my long-range shooter. But yeah, sometimes the Mukhtar is in the right place to be the best tool to remove an ARO. In my game yesterday, she cheerfully took out a missile bot that had stood up on ARO duty - she was inside 24" so at almost no risk thanks to her mimetism, whereas the Azra'il would have been taking a risk to shoot at it in the 24-32" range.

    It hadn't occurred to me to use her through smoke from outside 24", and I'm very happy to add that idea to the toolbox! But, I just ran the numbers and against the Q-Drone, it doesn't look good in the 24-32" range. The Q-Drone is on 5s (it has been given Marksmanship in this scenario) to the Mukhtar's 7s, giving the Mukhtar a 38% chance to wound and 22% chance to get wounded.

    32"-40" is great, though, the Q-Drone is on -12 and has to dodge against the Mukhtar's 7s. Still only a 40% chance to wound, but at zero risk.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's an awful idea, 10% success rate. Spec firing with grenade launchers tends to suck this edition because they nerfed the range bands considerably.

    Rolling with 1 dice on 5s is an act of pure desperation only.
     
  13. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I think you feeled exactly what you should when playing an Azrail. The numbers are there. Probably "Azzy" will not be our best shooter in plain numbers to "get a hit", but when the "damage" should be resolved, then the numbers are really good. Noplayer wants any of his own models hited by an Azrail.

    About what others said about the Mukthar I never did too much use of him I always take the "djambazan hmg" for MultispectralVisor porpouses", but now it is true that I see this profile less than I did back in N3. I couldn't say why. Maybe the point cost drop to HI and TAGs in this N4 has done some damage to that "red fury", damage 13 isn't the best value when you have to face high ARM plus covert. Still, to kill light targets or most of MI more like small HI, it is still perfect.

    Thanks for sharing the experience @QueensGambit

    Saturday 30 I have a Tournament. I don't know yet what I wil play, but vainilla haqquiss is an option I'm seriously taking into consideration. If I do I will share here what list and how every profile will do.

    Best regards.
     
  14. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    So... I wrote earlier that today's a tournament, our rules - HELLoween scenarios, 250 pts. Grabbing pumpkins from the ground, conquering campfires and just plainly taking care of treat'or'treaters ;)
    I used Shakush and even though I planned to use 2 armylists, one with AP Spit, second with HMG, I ended up using only the rooster with HMG. And it did really good.
    In first battle against JSA he destroyed Dayokai in one burst (Dayo was wounded already) and withstand few attacks from Ninja hacker, then killed another few guys. Also scored mi some OP by collecting pumpkins ;)
    In second battle vs Ariadna he went for a walk and burnt Specnaz HMG, killed few Antipodes, Uxia Macneil and secured one of the campfires.
    In the last battle vs Hassassins, when I lost initiative, he went for ARO duty, withstand many shots, was wounded once. Then he killed linked Lasiq FO from distance, next, when the Fireteam was cancelled, he obliterated Asawira Spit (in one burst), Asawira Doc AP Rifle (in one burst again) and few other guys. Survived all three games.

    [​IMG]

    It's only one tournament with weird rules etc, but still it's just nice to have something tankier and shootier than usual ;) I though AP spit will be THE weapon for fighting against HI, but HMG DAM 16 turned out to be really good.

    [​IMG]

    I'm thinking of using Shakush again in our upcoming ITS 13 tournament - 13 November.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
  15. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    So, as I've written earlier, I was thinking of using Shakush in ITS tournament - and I did, yesterday.
    My first list was made for Frostbyte and Aquisition -
    300 Shakush
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    HAFZA Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    SHAKUSH Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 58)
    [​IMG] SHAKUSH PILOT Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    HAWWA' (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
    BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    NAJJARUN Engineer Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 15)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    SHIHAB REMOTE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
    HAFZA Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 17)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    KUM Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Second was for Countermeasure:
    300 Sha Rah Counter
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    SALADIN (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    HAFZA (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 17)
    SHAKUSH Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 58)
    [​IMG] SHAKUSH PILOT Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    HAWWA' (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
    ROUHANI Submachine Gun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    NAJJARUN Engineer Rifle, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    SHIHAB REMOTE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    KUM Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    As you can see (if you want ;) ) the lists are similar, kind of my playing style. I decided to take Kum instead of typical Ghazi because of ITS mimetism for motorcycles. And the riders did really good - especially Zuleyka, who was the star of my games. In all 3 missions I get the Predator card and in all of the games she killed more than 3 guys in CC.
    This time Shakush wasn't the main character and main shooter, but also did what he had to do.
    I played Frostbyte vs Invincible Army on 1 group (2 Yan Huo in Haris, core with Shang Ji), then Aquisition against Kosmoflot (Core and Haris) and Countermeasure against OSSS (core with buffed Dakinis, Proxies etc). I won all three games rather easy to be honest (10:1, 10:0 and 8:2) ;) Always winning initiative and almost not having a situation when bad rolls destroy the plan. Knauf/Jethro was important, grinding through Yan Huo for example, Daylamis did good job, as also the rest.
    Shakush was usually waiting to take action, in the first battle destroyed some Zhuyong and other guy and gave me the control of Dead Zone in the centre of board.
    In the second battle he only attacked once, when Kosmoflot was already seriously wounded - he shoot Unknown Ranger to death in one beautiful burst (all hits and a crit - 5 armor saves for the victim). Then he controlled the objective in the center.
    [​IMG]
    Photo before the deployment of reserve - Shakush and Zuleyka were deployed on the right side.
    In the final battle was the only situation when my dices decided to make a bit of a joke, but only in the end of the battle, when I was already having 6 objectives made and my enemy had 1. In this battle Shakush put down Dakini HMG (for some time) and also tried to put down Dakini sniper, but got wounded. And in the last 2 orders of my third turn I was again trying to kill that sniper just for the fun of it. We were shooting through Blizzard and I had 3 dices hitting on 11, while he had one on 14 (buffed by Evo). And in the first order when I went to LoF with the sniper I missed my shots, got hit and got second wound. So in the next order I moved out of LoF of the sniper and again Dakini hit better and I failed my arm rolls and for the first time lost Shakush in battle. Yet that was something made clearly for fun, as I knew it had no impact on the outcome of the battle and of the tournament.
    Still have to remember, that even a lone sniper can take out a TAG ;)
    [​IMG]
    Shakush is in the right bottom, the sniper up on the highest building in his deployment, close to the big commercial add on the roof.

    All in all, I'm really happy with that light TAG. Lets me build quite normal armylists and still is rather shooty and tough. Good unit. But in yesterday's games I was thinking that having AP Spitfire could be actually better - getting closer and into better ranges than HRL/MLs or Snipers is great and would help me in few situations, AP ammo also would be good against toughies. But also the shorter range of weapon would make is rather ineffective in most ARO options. Still I mostly kept Shakush hidden, so maybe next time I'll try the AP Spit version ;)


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think that makes sense given your lists. You have shakush and knauf for long range, but no spitfire for medium range. To have both, you could do knauf and the spitfire shakush as you suggest, or keep the hmg shakush and replace knauf with an asawira or mukhtar.

    I haven't been running knauf and shakush together, but it's not surprising that your shakush didn't take a lot of shots with knauf doing the long- range work. Still, the shakush can't have been too shabby for three majors - congrats :-)
     
  17. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
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    Thanks!
    To be honest I don't usually take guns for all of the ranges - in most situatons some skirmisher can take on sniper or something similar from up close. I prefer having few long range options, because plans can easily go to the trash with some bad rolls ;)
    But you're right, with Knauf and Shihab I could swap the HMG for AP Spit on Shakush. Definitely will have to think about it in future.

    Even in that final battle against OSSS the Dakini sniper, who had good view on enemy's HVT, was taken down by Knauf (after Shakush put down HMG Dakini). Then my engineer's Nasmat made a run through half the table and made a mission on HVT. But then Dakinis stood up, as they had Engineer rather close. It's hard to take them out definitely with the Remote Presence.
    And in their active turn Dakini Sniper was able to hit Knauf, I failed both ARM rolls, and that's why in the end it was the Shihab and the Shakush that tried to avenge their comrade ;)


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  18. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Alright, so six months later, I feel like I've tested some of these hypotheses fairly thoroughly.

    I played a lot of games with a Shakush HMG, and then a lot more with an Azra'il HMG. I wanted them over Knauf for dealing with dedicated ARO pieces like linked snipers - the kind of ARO that has decent odds of winning a F2F. The big guys have the ARM and wounds to survive those fights and keep shooting.

    What I found was that I was rarely seeing those sorts of dedicated ARO pieces. Some discussion of that in this thread: What AROs are you seeing on the table? | Corvus Belli Community Forum , and since then the trend has continued. With the recent fireteam changes, I expect to see even fewer really apex ARO pieces.

    So then I tried running lists with no long-range guns at all, which is an approach that has always had some adherents on this subforum. What I found was that a good opponent will notice, and stand up a bunch of random AROs. I recall one particularly harsh game where I got pinned down by, of all things, an Asawira Doctor. I just didn't have an efficient way to get rid of him, which is why my opponent stood him up in the first place.

    So, now I'm trying Knauf, and I have to concede that I think I'm liking him best of the three. He stays away from risky fights like an MSV sniper in a haris - I try to sneak an Asawira Spitfire into 24" to deal with those. Knauf is basically a bully forcing everyone else on the table to keep their heads down, and vaporizing anything that gets too bold and leaves itself exposed. In that role, he's similar to the Azra'il but 8 points cheaper and significantly more maneuverable.

    tl;dr who needs an Azra'il when everyone is null deploying anyway?
     
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  19. HeadChime

    HeadChime Well-Known Member
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    This is something I've been thinking about for a while. I came to the following conclusions:

    1. I want at least long-range gun. For the following reasons
      • Sometimes the map is open
      • Sometimes it's more efficient to shoot something than avoid it
      • I already run 2 Fidays, so can't take anymore, and Sometimes they die.
    2. If I'm taking one gun, I want it to be as relevant as possible vs the widest range of targets. The shakush and azrail outperform vs vanilla and msv targets (compared to knauf) but they're a bit rubbish vs mimetism, and I see mimetism a lot.
    3. I dont want to overspend on my gun because it's not supposed to be the core of the list.
    4. If I'm I'm taking one gun I don't want it to be that vulnerable to t1 strikes. This is a problem for TAGs (can't prone, susceptible to pitcher spam) and heavy infantry (problems vs pitcher spam). Though, having said that, Knauf is more vulnerable to deployment zone pushes, but thats easier to stop than hacking.
    If you're taking just one gun, you don't need it to be phenomenal, you just need it to be "good enough" vs a wide range of targets. And knauf is good enough against nearly everything.

    This is, incidentally, what I think a lot of PanO players get wrong when they fixate on not having msv on a certain gun, or something similar. You don't need to be perfect, you just need to be good enough to get the job done.
     
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  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think everything in your post basically nails it. To add to this point specifically: Knauf eventually gets hunted by a Beasthunter basically every single game. Which is fair enough, since he's a beast. But yeah, he curls up and dies as soon as he sees a template.

    OTOH, a Beasthunter can take out an Azra'il or Shakush almost as effectively, and Knauf is easier to deploy further back (because his gun is longer range) or high on a roof (because of his smaller silhouette), so in some ways he's actually less vulnerable than his rivals.

    That's also why I'm not all that interested in the apex shooter fireteam stuff. Everyone used to talk about how scary a core linked Asawira is, but a solo Asawira is almost as effective, and doesn't have to drag 4 flimsy targets around with him everywhere.
     
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