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Intuitive Attack VS mine

Discussion in 'Rules' started by helsbecter, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Imagine a mine behind a half-wall in camo state. A Morlock approaches, in plain view of the S2 marker, but not close enough to enter the mine's trigger area.

    The Morlock declares intuitive attack with on the marker, but because of the half-wall the chain rifle doesn't reach the true profile of the mine. What happens?

    We played it that the mine took a chain rifle hit and made an armor roll, revealing it then. This doesn't make much sense but I think the rules demand it. What do you all think?
     
  2. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of perceptual logic, the mine takes no actual damage but the mine is now known to be a mine whether or not there is wording in the book for such a case. So, might as well be discovered.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I forget how it was resolved in N3, but that mine is S2 until it makes an armor roll. So you can intuitive attack the camo token, and then it has to make a save, potentially being destroyed. Either way it's revealed, as long as you pass your WIP roll.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Took a little tour through the rules for relevant pieces.

    Best I could come up with to provide an answer for N4 is this one:
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Replacing_Models_and_Markers

    upload_2021-10-8_10-30-12.png

    Under replacing Models and Markers for different diameters it mentions that the replacement is allowed to gain a Cover state the original didn't have (which would work for Mines despite not being troopers because the Replacement rules mention "we use the word trooper, but this is not excluve to troopers" at the beginning).

    But, this would only happen when the Mine gets revealed and replaces the Camo Token with a Mine Token.
    Which only happens after the 6.1 Effects step when the ARM roll happens. The Mine would then gain Total Cover in the given scenario.
    The problem here is that Total Cover gets accounted for during 6.0 during resolution, thus will have no effect against an Intuitive Attack here.

    RAW the Mine takes the hit and has to make the ARM roll, if it survives it's in Total Cover for the next Order.


    But this runs into the problem that there is a different sequence of Events with the same order of Events that's called out in the rules to work differently. Discover + BS Attack.
    upload_2021-10-8_10-42-40.png

    We know that when you Discover shoot the same Mine in the same position, you do not get to follow through with the BS attack.
    Despite the Discover Roll happening in 6.1.
    That makes it "against the spirit of the rules" to use RAW and difficult to argue Intuitive Attack should be able to affect a Mine who's Profile Silhouette would be in Total Cover.

    The Order Expenditure rules don't cope very well with Mines changing S value when revealed. Or Mines in general, considering how a triggering Mine is removed from play outside the Order Expenditure Sequence.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As per IJW's answers to this questions on a bunch of occasions previously: the Camo Marker's state is cancelled if the object it hides is forced to make a save, but a mine is never S2 tall so having a template touch the Camouflage marker does not make the mine take a save. You need to touch the mine's volume to make it take a save.

    What happens is that the Morlock will make an intuitive attack and the opponent informs the Morlock's player that the target is not in a situation where it needs to make a save and that's it.
     
  6. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    So it's also impossible to discover mines behind low cover, where only the upper part of the S2 template sticks out?
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    No, because the Discover is against the Camouflage marker.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The Intuitive Attack is against the camo marker too. This is two-faced. The mine is S2 until it's revealed.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Hmm, the rules appear to be contradictory.

    The Concealed trait says that the Camouflage marker is S2, but does not say that the weapon/equipment changes silhouette. While the Camouflaged State rules say that a weapon or equipment in the Camouflaged State are S2.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Intuitive Attack does not target the camouflage marker, its target must be in a position or state where they can normally not be targeted. Being in the Camouflaged State does not equal being the Camouflage Marker. Doing an Intuitive Attack on the top portion of a mine would cause the Intuitive Attack to fail requirements check as the target is not in area of effect.
     
  11. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Why not just play it logically... its revealed but doesnt get hit.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's not contradictory; the first rule you quoted is just incomplete.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Being in the camouflage state *does* mean you're the camouflage marker, and as was quoted above, a mine in camouflaged state *is* S2, until it's revealed.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Dunno who you mean quoted that, only one I see is you saying it and you're kind of a dodgy rules source, not being written by CB or anything. You're gonna have to quote them rules where it verbatim says the Camouflaged Marker and the unit it hides are the same unit, 'cause all I see in the rules is that the camouflage marker is hiding the original unit under it.

    It's the act of taking an ARM save that causes the Mine to reveal, meaning if it is to reveal from an Intuitive Attack, it'll need to have already taken a hit.
     
  15. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about the rules as written or even as intended because neither is adequate in this particular scenario. But let's think logically about it. A camo marker without prone marker is S2. Upon performing the intuitive attack against a non-prone S2 camo marker it should make an armor roll if it is anything but a mine because nothing else in the game has S0 while not prone when not in marker state but S2 while in not prone in marker state.

    Alternatively, you could just play it has the mine took the hit and must make the armor save and let this be a lesson to players to prone next to camo markers even if they are secretly mines or be forced take the hit. I'm pretty sure the mine activation however is only from S0 and not from the S2 of the marker state.


    Lastly I just wanted to make sure I understood the rules correctly so I went and had a look and well, maybe it's different that either of us originally thought:



    "The target of the Intuitive Attack (or Main Target if using a Template Weapon) must be outside the user's LoF due to a Zero Visibility Zone, or be in a State that would normally prevent Attacks from being performed against them without previously being Discovered, such as the Camouflaged State."

    "You cannot declare Attacks against Camouflaged Markers, it is necessary to Discover that Marker first (Discover + Attack maneuver), unless otherwise specified by a rule or Skill."

    Notice that the rule for intuitive attack and the rule for camouflaged state pretty much say you arent attacking the marker, you're attack the mine. You would still need a physical LoF to the mine. So, if you cannot declare an attack against a camo marker and intuitive attack only allows to attack something in the camouflaged state but not the camo marker, then the way to think about this is as if the camo marker and the unit or equipment occupy the same space. Think about it like Hidden deployment. It's there but you cant see it. A marker is just stating there is something there, not that the marker is that something. If I'm reading both rules as written then the Intuitive Attack cannot actually be declared because of the LoF restrictions of BS Attacks.

    Moreover, this creates an interesting way to determine if something is a mine or not.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Mahtamori from the Camouflaged state entry in the wiki:

    So the mine itself has a silhouette value of 2 while it's in camouflaged state, not just the marker.
     
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  17. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Ho lee shi-ite, well, good job for finally putting it to rest man :+1:
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Wait does that affect trigger area then?
     
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  19. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    The wiki says this:
    The Trigger Area of a Mine (whether it is a Camouflage Marker or a Mine Token) is the area within the radius of the Small Teardrop Template, extended out from the edge of the base of the Mine.

    Emphasis, mine (pun intended). It looks like even as an S2 template, the mine would not actually trigger unless the template can be traced unimpeded from the base of the mine, which I assume refers the SX size of the token... so you wouldn't be able to drop the template from the S2 space above the mine.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It messes with a lot of things, not least because the rules are a bit iffy on when a base is a base and when it's a silhouette. It'd have been so much simpler if they had just made mines be S2 and Prone.
     
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